# Solve the Middle East **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934 "2020-12-01T16:52:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/81 "2020-12-05T01:54:20Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Perhaps you see where I’m going with this We could solve all of the problems in the Middle East by getting everyone to lick each other? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/82 "2020-12-05T14:16:29Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I don’t know if a solution to a problem largely fueled by a two thousand year long religious conflict is one more religion. True enough. But it’s the realization of some old adages. 1. My enemy’s enemy is my friend. (for now). 2. Me against my brother. My brother and I against my cousin. I and my family against my neighbors. I and my neighbors against the next town. etc. Many pundits far wiser than I have said for many years that humanity will discover its universal brotherhood right after the alien battleships appear in orbit. And not a moment before. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/83 "2020-12-05T14:37:43Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Many pundits far wiser than I have said for many years that humanity will discover its universal brotherhood right after the alien battleships appear in orbit. And not a moment before. Yeah, I can see how that will focus our minds on the important things. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/84 "2020-12-05T14:47:26Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Many pundits far wiser than I have said for many years that humanity will discover its universal brotherhood right after the alien battleships appear in orbit. And not a moment before. I don’t feel it’s as hopeless as that. I don’t feel the only possibility is countries being united by the threat of war. It is possible for countries to be united by the advantages of peace. The countries in some regions have figured out that they all individually benefit from having a system where they collectively agree not to seek advantage over each other by military means. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/85 "2020-12-05T15:01:17Z")
I will also point out that when COVID first reared its head a LOT of hopeful pundits wrote of this as being a unifying moment across countries because viruses don’t respect borders. They also wrote that this would be a unifying moment across classes because viruses don’t respect class boundaries either. And best of all, since it wasn’t human, so it would not have any natural reservoir of cheerleaders on its side. It was pure faceless evil. 9 months later we can see how well those predictions are panning out. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/86 "2020-12-05T15:17:41Z")
If anyone had predicted 100 years ago that - after so many centuries of intense and bloody religious and political conflict - Europe would one day be peaceful and unified, and France and Germany would be (kind of) buddies in a European Union of 28 countries, they would have been called utopian nutcases. There’s always hope! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/87 "2020-12-05T15:26:42Z")
It took them a couple of tries though, didn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/88 "2020-12-10T17:13:08Z")
I like this idea, in theory, but in reality there is one fundamental flaw. In Israel, there is secular law, and while there are religious courts, they are optional. Usually those that use them are choosing to use them for their own (religious, or other personal) reasons. If I kill my wife in Israel, I am going to be arrested and put into what is largely a secular legal system. However, in the Gaza Strip, as well as in many other Islamic majority nations in the region, the legal and political systems are deeply intertwined with the religious system. It varies from region to region as well. In Jordan, my understanding is that there are religious courts, but they are only for matters passed to them by the civil courts having to do with marriage, divorce and similar. On the other end of the spectrum is Iran, of course (though not an Arab nation) that has essentially a religious ruling class that dictates laws based on Islamic jurisprudence and their interpretation of _Sharia_. That singular issue is one that is probably the largest block to your idea. Some in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict WANT religious laws as the core of their legal system (on both sides) and those folks are loud, and will violently resist efforts to do away with religious basis of laws. Heck, Syria had several small rebellions in the 70’s when the current Assad’s father implemented a Constitutional change that no longer required the President of Syria to be a Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/89 "2020-12-11T15:29:08Z")
The solution to the ME problem is to make it in Israel et al’s best interest to solve it. The middle east is similar to South Africa in that a foreign society is imposing it’s authority on a native population. Israeli’s are excellent at doing what is best for their country. Make it in their best interest to solve the problem and they will do it. Some things we could do: 1. Change our propaganda to promote Israel as a modern industrial nation whose history began in 1947, There is no connection, and we have no obligation, to a biblical foundation mythology. 2. Support a Greater Israel policy to allow annexation of territory. Israel cannot exist without expanding. Make the price absorbing all of it’s population as equal citizens. Until then we should treat Israel as an apartheid country. 3. Promote the alliance between Israel and Saudi Arabia as the bulwark against Iran. ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/90 "2020-12-11T15:44:17Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Support a Greater Israel policy to allow annexation of territory. Israel cannot exist without expanding. Make the price absorbing all of it’s population as equal citizens. Until then we should treat Israel as an apartheid country. This goes completely against international law and (putative) norms. If Israel can do it, what was wrong with Russia annexing Crimea? The only way you could morally and legally do this if you got sufficient majority of the Palestinians to vote for it, which I don’t think they are willing to do any time soon, if ever. Why can’t Israel exist without expanding? And if it can’t, maybe it shouldn’t. That is one way to “solve” the Middle East (it wouldn’t actually solve much, perhaps only one small part of it), namely conquer Israel and expunge all the Israelis somewhere, probobly the US. But that would be just as wrong, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/91 "2020-12-11T15:44:55Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Some things we could do Is that supposed to be a humorous or satirical post? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/92 "2020-12-11T15:45:05Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Because the clerics, at every level, are contributing to the divisions. They are as guilty, if not more so, than the authoritarians. That is a big part of it indeed. Riffing on your following posts, I would (half jokingly) follow the advice of an Atheist that commented that one solution may be to drop millions of flyers with essays from Bertrand Russell about religion. “If only men could be brought into a tentatively agnostic frame of mind about these matters, nine-tenths of the evils of the modern world would be cured.” - Bertrand Russell (From: The Will to Doubt - 1922 lecture) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/93 "2020-12-11T18:09:23Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The solution to the ME problem is to make it in Israel et al’s best interest to solve it. The “ME problem” is vastly more than Israel vs everybody. If we magically duplicated/teleported Israel proper 100 miles west to be an island in the Med, while leaving the current land still in place to become “Palestine” lots of problems will still remain that have nothing to do with Israel’s existence or its policies. Or Palestine’s existence or policies. IMO Israel’s presence amounts to a significant accelerant in the ongoing fire of the ME. But taking away some of the gasoline doesn’t mean the rest of the fire goes out. Lots of bad actors are happy to use Israel as the excuse for their bad acts. And Israel for its part has certainly done and is doing unhelpful crap. So being a bad actor and giving cover to opposing bad actors at the same time. Bottom-line: “The ME problem” is not synonymous with “Israel vs the Arabs” or “Israel vs. the Palestinian homeland” ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/94 "2020-12-12T14:06:40Z")
All true. But, a part of the ME solution is for Israel to become a stabilizing factor. As Israel grows it’s economy and interacts with it’s immediate neighbors it is taking on that role. Israel cannot continue to exist without the resources of the West Bank. And it cannot continue to exist without resolving the Palestinian problem. There are fine minds in the Israeli and Palestinian communities that understand the situation and are capable of managing the solution. We need to support the process. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/95 "2020-12-12T15:48:26Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Israel cannot continue to exist without the resources of the West Bank. What resources? Why can’t it continue to exist? ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/96 "2020-12-12T18:05:48Z")
To start with - **water**. Without the Golan and West Bank Israel would be dry. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/97 "2020-12-12T18:23:07Z")
Israel already controls the water resources of the West Bank. If the West Bank ever becomes independent, it will be first be necessary to reach an agreement about water resources. It doesn’t mean that the only solution is for Israel to completely annex the West Bank. > **[The Occupation of Water](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/)** > > The legacy of Israel’s 50-year occupation of the Palestinian territories has been systematic human rights violations on a mass scale. One of its consequences is the impact of Israel’s discriminatory policies on Palestinians’ access to clean and safe... ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/98 "2020-12-12T18:46:45Z")
You are correct and you support my point. Israel cannot survive without the resources of the West Bank. An accommodation other than annexation is open to them, but they must have the resources. ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/99 "2020-12-12T18:55:24Z")
How fortunate for the Palestinians the we have determined that they do not need any resources. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/100 "2020-12-12T19:04:10Z")
Be careful throwing that “we” around. There are certainly some people, both here and out in the world at large, who seemingly think that. But many more who do not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934.md?page=6)