# Somalian Pirates Seize US Crew -- Is It On? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397 "2009-04-08T15:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/241 "2009-04-10T17:31:41Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > This is part of the problem. Americans who think that every problem has to have an easy and obvious solution which can be found in 30 minutes and that includes time for commercials. > > Real life is not like that. In real life sometimes the doctor says it is best to leave the problem as it is because anything you do is going to make it worse. So you learn to live with a persistent cough. > > The stupidity shown in some of the posts here is just astounding. Sink the hijacked ship killing pirates and hostages? That’s just retarded. Most ships are not American property, the cargo is not American property, the lives are not American lives. How can America unilaterally decide to go and sink a ship. The huge stupidity of the proposal is immediately evident. You would have the entire world up in arms against America for trying to resolve in a cowboy manner a problem which is not really America’s problem. These proposals are only excusable in ten year-old boys in the school yard. > > A convoy system would be voluntarily implemented if the risk was huge, like it was in WWII but that is not the case. It would be extremely difficult to implement and coordinate. Countries would have to supply the naval ships and a command and coordination structure would be set up. Ships would have to be coordinated as well. They would have to gather and wait at gathering areas. Waiting costs a lot. Time is money and when you are talking about a big container ship it means a lot of money, probably more than the pirates are getting away with. Then you have a huge convoy get underway. Ships need to keep station and learn to maneuver as a whole, even in fog or rain. In WWII you could gather all the captains of a convoy in a room and plan. Now you have ships coming that way from all over the world. The possibility of messing up is just too big. Keeping station while the convoy is maneuvering as a whole can be done but shit happens and its better if you don’t have to do it. Chances are you are going to have a few collissions and collisions cost money and sometimes lives. > > A convoy would be tens of miles wide. I doubt it would be viable to maneuver a convoy in the Gulf of Aden which narrows down to nothing. You’d have to set up an internationally agreed scheme. If America proposed any of all this most nations would laugh and say “why don’t you go home and mind your own business?” The problem just does not warrant extreme measures like this. > > The entire convoy is limited in speed by the slowest ship. I can see the big guys saying "Oh, _he’s_ coming with us? At nine knots? Fuck that. I’m going on my own. " > > Some people here would see a patient with a cough and would think it would surely solve the problem if we just extirpated the lungs and trachea. So what if the patient dies? That’s just a price you pay for getting rid of the cough which is what we want to do over everything else. > > So, again, we have a problem of which the victims are the shipping companies. Are they asking to be bombed if hijacked? Are they asking for convoys? No, they are not. So how exactly would it be helping them to impose things which they do not want? How would it be helping them to impose things which would cost more than the ocassional ransom? > > Another observation is that most people in advanced countries have more regard for human life than many Americans do. When there is a hostage situation the Russians and the Chinese have little problem using force even if many of the hostages die. So what if we went into a school and hundreds of kids died? Many Americans are right up there. Human life is of little concern when these people need to make a point that you don’t mess with Jack. Even if you weren’t messing with Jack at all. You just don’t mess with Jack and if you do we will kill you. Talk about being world policeman. > > Many people fail to see the problem for what it is and see only an opportunity for America to wave its dick around in a situation which hardly concerns America in the first place. This problem has been going on for a long time and now just because an American ship was involved some people want to start WWIII over the incident. Let us not lose a sense of proportion. I was in no way implying that we or anyone else should _actually_ carry out such craziness. I was ruminating aloud and mentioned it as one potential outcome and that’s _all_. Apologies to \*\*Mighty Girl \*\*if I was less than clear. Also, no, I don’t think that there is an easy, 30 minute solution to this. I never said that. I said that with the combined efforts of the parties involved, that there must be \*some \*kind of solution. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/242 "2009-04-10T18:36:17Z")
The French have rescued some hostages from a French yacht that had been hijacked by Somalian pirates, resulting in the death of an hostage. Apparently they stormed the yacht. > **[Hostage, 2 pirates killed in French rescue operation - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/africa/04/10/somalia.france/index.html)** > > A French hostage and two pirates died Friday in a rescue operation off Somalia, the French president's office in Paris said Friday. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/243 "2009-04-10T18:44:17Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Also, no, I don’t think that there is an easy, 30 minute solution to this. I never said that. I said that with the combined efforts of the parties involved, that there must be \*some \*kind of solution. I think that the only long-term solution is improving the lives of Somalis. It would have to get worse for anyone to get off their collective asses and implement any type of concerted solution. As it is, everyone just puts off with the “minor” inconvenience because it’s cheaper and doesn’t require any type of consensus. I hope that the powers that be decide to do something about Somalia before it gets to the point where armed retaliation is necessary. That will not benefit anyone. I saw that Obama was asked about this situation and he declined to answer the question. Smart guy. Whatever he says will piss off a bunch of people under the current circumstances. He probably knows that there’s no solution that doesn’t require a commitment of soldiers and money. And if he says he’s going after the hijackers he risks the captain’s life, if he says he’s not, somebody will accuse of “appeasement” or some other such nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/244 "2009-04-10T18:51:34Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > I think that the only long-term solution is improving the lives of Somalis. It would have to get worse for anyone to get off their collective asses and implement any type of concerted solution. As it is, everyone just puts off with the “minor” inconvenience because it’s cheaper and doesn’t require any type of consensus. > > I hope that the powers that be decide to do something about Somalia before it gets to the point where armed retaliation is necessary. That will not benefit anyone. > > I saw that Obama was asked about this situation and he declined to answer the question. Smart guy. Whatever he says will piss off a bunch of people under the current circumstances. He probably knows that there’s no solution that doesn’t require a commitment of soldiers and money. And if he says he’s going after the hijackers he risks the captain’s life, if he says he’s not, somebody will accuse of “appeasement” or some other such nonsense. Yeah. I’m sure that even if Obama had answered the question he would have had to keep his wording pretty vague. I also agree that improving the lives of Somalians is the long-term solution. The prospect of a US troop presence in Somalia is pretty unnerving though, given the outcome of our last incursion there. I find it ironic that the Maersk Alabama was a ship bound for another African country in need (was it Kenya?), loaded with food aid. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/245 "2009-04-10T19:18:59Z")
It obviously isn’t a solution to the overall problem, but is there any reason why, in this specific hostage situation, we can’t just say “the boat is surrounded; release the captain and be arrested, or we sink the ship and reimburse Maersk?” ---
**Author:** ![Tymp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Tymp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tymp)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/246 "2009-04-10T19:23:54Z")
> [@furt](#): > > It obviously isn’t a solution to the overall problem, but is there any reason why, in this specific hostage situation, we can’t just say “the boat is surrounded; release the captain and be arrested, or we sink the ship and reimburse Maersk?” Kill the captain by sinking the ship? That’s better than paying a ransom? What dollar value his life worth in your mind? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/247 "2009-04-10T20:12:19Z")
> [@furt](#): > > It obviously isn’t a solution to the overall problem, but is there any reason why, in this specific hostage situation, we can’t just say “the boat is surrounded; release the captain and be arrested, or we sink the ship and reimburse Maersk?” I think I am not following you. What exactly would this solve? Because I can tell you it would create a load of problems. How does this resolve anything? Apart from the satisfaction American get from blowing things up? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/248 "2009-04-10T21:02:18Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > the satisfaction American get from blowing things up? Why do you keep repeating this as if there aren’t any Americans that don’t like blowing things up, or killing people? Or as if there aren’t many many other nations filled with people that _do_ like those things? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/249 "2009-04-10T21:23:09Z")
> [@furt](#): > > It obviously isn’t a solution to the overall problem, but is there any reason why, in this specific hostage situation, we can’t just say “the boat is surrounded; release the captain and be arrested, or we sink the ship and reimburse Maersk?” I don’t understand this. You realize that the captain isn’t on his ship, right? He and the pirates are on a lifeboat. Why would you sink the ship at this point? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/250 "2009-04-10T21:56:54Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Why do you keep repeating this as if there aren’t any Americans that don’t like blowing things up, or killing people? Or as if there aren’t many many other nations filled with people that _do_ like those things? Look at the responses in this thread. I could be wrong but from my point of view Americans are much more inclined to use violence to resolve issues. Whether it is their love for firearms, their nationalism, their pro-military attitude, America’s military spending, the use of the death penalty, it all shows Americans like to resort to violence more often and sooner than people in other developed countries. When America resorts to violence and European allies express any reserve about the wisdom of it we have to hear Americans calling us cowards. Because for those Americans the only reason one would not resort to violence or support a friend who does would be cowardice. Americans as a whole support the use of violence and those who don’t are shouted down and called cowards if not America haters and terrorist lovers. Because there is no other explanation. I can think of no European government which would so easily and readily resort to violence. Russians or Chinese would think nothing of assaulting a building full of hostages just to make the point that they have no qualms about using violence. European governments would do that only as a very last resort. America in that regard is closer the Russia and China. And please spare me the “not every American is like that” lecture which I get every time. Please read [this post of mine](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11012832&postcount=140). ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/251 "2009-04-10T21:57:09Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > I don’t understand this. You realize that the captain isn’t on his ship, right? He and the pirates are on a lifeboat. Why would you sink the ship at this point? I wonder if there’s a chance they could coordinate some snipers on the US warship and kill the bad guys with a sychronized set of shots? ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/252 "2009-04-10T22:40:20Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I wonder if there’s a chance they could coordinate some snipers on the US warship and kill the bad guys with a sychronized set of shots? Probably get at least as many of the other hostages held by pirates killed for your trouble. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/253 "2009-04-10T22:53:39Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Probably get at least as many of the other hostages held by pirates killed for your trouble. Well, there’s only one hostage, the captain. I don’t know how many pirates there are in the lifeboat, but if they present an opportunity by seperating themselves far enough away from the captain, there might be a chance, although a few things just occured to me: One is that being on the ocean is going to affect a sniper’s ability to shoot accurately due to the movement of the ship they’re on. Another is that we don’t know how far away from the lifeboat the American warships (about to be three now) are. Lastly, if you try it and miss, the captain’s likely dead as any surviving pirate(s) would probably kill him. It was just a thought. What a strange situation. The captain’s ship is continuing on it’s voyage to Mombassa without him, meanwhile he’s being held captive on a small lifeboat 350 miles from land surrounded by warships that are trying to negotiate with the pirates. And I just read that the American warships are monitoring communication lines and are reporting that other pirates are using vessels to try to locate the lifeboat. I wonder what will happen when/if other fellow pirates show up on the scene in seperate boats. I think it’s unlikely that the warships will fire on them, because the pirates in the lifeboat are probably going to use the captain’s life as a means of escaping on another boat. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/254 "2009-04-10T22:56:54Z")
Somalian pirates hold dozens of other hostages, on several ships, besides this one captain. If the word gets out that 4 pirates were killed, I’d not want to be one of those hostages. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/255 "2009-04-10T23:12:39Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Somalian pirates hold dozens of other hostages, on several ships, besides this one captain. If the word gets out that 4 pirates were killed, I’d not want to be one of those hostages. I suppose there’s that, too, but at the end of the day, you can only really deal with one situation at a time, no? And look at what the French just did…stormed a pirated yacht, killed the pirates and rescued three of the four hostages. Unfortunately one of the hostages also was killed. Very touchy situation, this. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/256 "2009-04-10T23:37:22Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > Somalian pirates hold dozens of other hostages, on several ships, besides this one captain. If the word gets out that 4 pirates were killed, I’d not want to be one of those hostages. What changes if pirates are killed? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/257 "2009-04-10T23:41:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What changes if pirates are killed? Possible retaliation against the other hostages, or even this captain in the event of a failed rescue? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/258 "2009-04-10T23:48:59Z")
My understanding is that the lifeboat the pirates & captain are in is covered. So I doubt there’s a clean line of sight for one pirate, much less four. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/259 "2009-04-10T23:50:31Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > My understanding is that the lifeboat the pirates & captain are in is covered. So I doubt there’s a clean line of sight for one pirate, much less four. Ah, didn’t think of that. I suppose that eliminates that option. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/260 "2009-04-10T23:55:35Z")
Still, I think I would be in favor of catching or killing hijackers if it can be done without direct and immediate threat to any hostages. The captain being held managed to jump in the water and tried to get away. If the military could have taken out the boat with the hijackers at that point I would have gone for it. Unfortunately the grabbed the captain and pulled him aboard. (I have no idea what he thought he was doing. I can’t believe he seriously thought he could swim away. Maybe he thought that would be the opportunity for the naval ship to take out the kidnappers.) I do not think the other hijackers who are holding a bunch of ships and people would have any interest in turning this into a shooting war because they know they cannot come out on top so I think killing one group would not lead to the others becoming violent. They would want to complete their deals just as before I would think. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397.md?page=14)