# Somalian Pirates Seize US Crew -- Is It On? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397 "2009-04-08T15:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/301 "2009-04-11T20:47:30Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not sure, but you may find this article interesting: > > [http://www.nytimes.com/1998/02/01/world/italian-ban-on-paying-kidnappers-stirs-anger.html](http://www.nytimes.com/1998/02/01/world/italian-ban-on-paying-kidnappers-stirs-anger.html) Not everybody seem to agree, per your cite. And this is neither useful nor relevant in any shape or form to the present circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/302 "2009-04-11T21:04:47Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Not everybody seem to agree, per your cite. The people who disagree are being selfish and short-sighted, putting everyone at risk to save single individuals. Since the law banning payments to kidnappers was passed, the number of kidnappings fell by 5/6ths. You know why? Because the people paying the ransoms were the people making kidnappings worthwhile. > [@](#): > > And this is neither useful nor relevant in any shape or form to the present circumstances. It’s perfectly relevant: Just like paying ransoms funds kidnappers and provides an incentive to continue kidnapping people, paying ransoms here funds pirates and provides an incentive to continue capturing ships. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/303 "2009-04-11T21:43:19Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > The people who disagree are being selfish and short-sighted, putting everyone at risk to save single individuals. Since the law banning payments to kidnappers was passed, the number of kidnappings fell by 5/6ths. You know why? Because the people paying the ransoms were the people making kidnappings worthwhile. > It’s perfectly relevant: Just like paying ransoms funds kidnappers and provides an incentive to continue kidnapping people, paying ransoms here funds pirates and provides an incentive to continue capturing ships. Nope. Not even distantly similar. In Italy the kidnapping and the paying of the ransom happen under the jurisdiction of the Italian state. In this case who is going to enact and implement this law? The Somalian government? Good luck with that because they hardly control a few city blocks. Who else has jurisdiction? An American law can only apply to American vessels or American citizens. How are you going to control vessels under other flags, owned by companies around the world, chartered by other companies in other countries, carrying cargoes form other countries, insured by companies aof other countries and with crews from other countries? Who has jurisdiction to forbid all those people from dealing with the kidnappers? Who has the capability to enforce it? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/304 "2009-04-11T21:56:52Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > I don’t understand this. You realize that the captain isn’t on his ship, right? He and the pirates are on a lifeboat. Why would you sink the ship at this point? Sorry, I said “ship,” meaning the boat they’re on. I haven’t had time to follow the story to see what kind of vessel they’re on. But my question is the same: if they refuse to release him, sink it. If it’s a lifeboat, it should just a matter of having a frogman punch a hole in the bottom of the thing. You pull the captain out of the drink, and leave the pirates to swim. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/305 "2009-04-11T22:02:50Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Sorry, I said “ship,” meaning the boat they’re on. I haven’t had time to follow the story to see what kind of vessel they’re on. But my question is the same: if they refuse to release him, sink it. If it’s a lifeboat, it should just a matter of having a frogman punch a hole in the bottom of the thing. You pull the captain out of the drink, and leave the pirates to swim. I guarantee you recover the captain’s dead body. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/306 "2009-04-11T22:10:53Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Sorry, I said “ship,” meaning the boat they’re on. I haven’t had time to follow the story to see what kind of vessel they’re on. But my question is the same: if they refuse to release him, sink it. If it’s a lifeboat, it should just a matter of having a frogman punch a hole in the bottom of the thing. You pull the captain out of the drink, and leave the pirates to swim. Yeah, I don’t know about that. Surely the pirates would notice and shoot the captain. My capsizing idea may work, but even then it’s a huge gamble with the captain’s life. To add to that idea, I wonder if the Somali pirates understand morse code? The captain most certainly would. The US ships could communicate messages to the captain with their louvred light thingie and let him know what was going to happen, although the pirates might be able to read it too. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/307 "2009-04-11T22:59:21Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Not everybody seem to agree, per your cite. > > And this is neither useful nor relevant in any shape or form to the present circumstances. You may be right, but I’m not sure. If the world’s industrialized nations got together and made it illegal (backed up with stiff fines or even jail time) to negotiate with or pay off pirates like these, it might work. ---
**Author:** ![ChrisBooth12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@ChrisBooth12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChrisBooth12)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/308 "2009-04-11T23:02:56Z")
Americans resort to violence to solve problems more often than other nations? Ok and…? Last time I checked the crew of the Alabama resisted the pirates and RETOOK control of the ship, and threw 3 pirates OVERBOARD. It is because of this resistance there is one hostage and not 20. Didn’t the French just recently storm a yacht getting a hostage killed in the process? ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/309 "2009-04-11T23:04:32Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > How were pirates dealt with in the past? Ruthlessly hunted and executed, or paid to keep on doing their thing? Both, of course. Many a king or city-state had no issues housing pirates within their harbours, as long as said pirates only plundered the right ships - i.e., those belonging to other kings or city-states - and paid a percentage. The history of the Baltic Sea, for instance, is pretty much a list of what king hired which pirates to mess with what other king’s shipping. Some of the pirates/privateers were basically freelancers, moving from port to port depending on who’d have them or who paid better. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/310 "2009-04-11T23:15:30Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > \*\*Sailor’\*\*s link above references a pirate attack on a German warship that resulted in a chasedown where the pirates were eventually caught and boarded by a Greek ship, at which point they took their weapons. > > What happened after that? Did they just let them go? > > I think they should arrest these guys and sink their boats. > > And if they do arrest pirates, how and where are they tried for their crimes? The Danish crew on HDMS Absalon caught 10 pirates before realizing what a legal mess it turned out to be. Danish and EU law specifically prohibits handing detainees to jurisdiction where they’re likely to receive the death penalty, which is pretty much any local authority. The other option was a trial in Copenhagen - expensive, and probably making it necessary to house the pirates for life, first as inmates, then as refugees who could make a good case that it’d be very dangerous and thus inhumane to send them back to Somalia. (To say nothing of the necessity of taking sailors and officers off the mission to act as witnesses.) In the end, they sank the pirate boat and let the pirates themselves go. Morale on the ship was not high after that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/311 "2009-04-11T23:29:24Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > In the end, they sank the pirate boat and let the pirates themselves go. Morale on the ship was not high after that. Couldn’t they have sunk the ship with the pirates on it? 😛😉 The latest I’ve heard is that the lifeboat is now 20 miles off the African coast. ISTM that unless the Navy takes action soon, the pirates and their hostage will be ‘feet dry’. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/312 "2009-04-11T23:31:50Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > The Danish crew on HDMS Absalon caught 10 pirates before realizing what a legal mess it turned out to be. > > Danish and EU law specifically prohibits handing detainees to jurisdiction where they’re likely to receive the death penalty, which is pretty much any local authority. The other option was a trial in Copenhagen - expensive, and probably making it necessary to house the pirates for life, first as inmates, then as refugees who could make a good case that it’d be very dangerous and thus inhumane to send them back to Somalia. (To say nothing of the necessity of taking sailors and officers off the mission to act as witnesses.) In the end, they sank the pirate boat and let the pirates themselves go. Morale on the ship was not high after that. If they sank the boat, how did they let them go? Ashore? Lifejackets? I think I recall reading in that story about the French yacht that it was close to shore, so maybe that’s it. So the pirates have no shortage of available boats and live to pirate another day, wonderful. Anyway, that sucks. How would it be inhumane to send them to Somalia? There isn’t even a functioning government there, which is why the pirates are so successful in the first place! What a convoluted mess. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/313 "2009-04-11T23:35:13Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Couldn’t they have sunk the ship with the pirates on it? 😛😉 > > The latest I’ve heard is that the lifeboat is now 20 miles off the African coast. ISTM that unless the Navy takes action soon, the pirates and their hostage will be ‘feet dry’. Maybe the Navy can send out light boats with an armed crew to block them from getting to land. Where did you hear that they were that close to shore already? I recall reading that the lifeboat had the capability to be motorized and had 10 days worth of food and water… Shit, if they attain land ahoy then that captain’s life became very expensive for the company he’s employed for, as they’ll just ransom him instead of the failed attempt to capture the Maersk Alabama, while the US Naval ships impotently follow the boat to shore. Damn. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/314 "2009-04-11T23:43:10Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Where did you hear that they were that close to shore already? I may have heard it on CNN earlier in the day. Or not. But here’s a [cite from ABC](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7314125&page=1): > [@](#): > > Sources added that, contrary to earlier news reports, the pirates had fuel on the lifeboat and had used it to move within 20 miles off the African coast. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/315 "2009-04-11T23:46:02Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I may have heard it on CNN earlier in the day. Or not. But here’s a [cite from ABC](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7314125&page=1): I’m not sure what can be done to rescue the captain while the boat remains in the sea, and the chances of him being freed if the boat is allowed to put into shore without a ransom seem remarkably small. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/316 "2009-04-12T00:01:52Z")
> [@ChrisBooth12](#): > > Americans resort to violence to solve problems more often than other nations? Ok and..? Last time I checked the crew of the Alabama resisted the pirates and RETOOK control of the ship, and threw 3 pirates OVERBOARD. It is because of this resistance there is one hostage and not 20. Didn’t the French just recently storm a yacht getting a hostage killed in the process? You may not have read the whole thread, but just in case: they violated company procedures, and while I am not going to speculate on what possible outcomes it would have had they not done so, it seems that the situation is a little more complicated now. Reading between the lines the company does not seem to be entirely happy about their action either. I know for a fact that in this company procedure is law and religion, it’s a miracle they don’t have procedures on how to fart and burp. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/317 "2009-04-12T00:07:09Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > You may not have read the whole thread, but just in case: they violated company procedures… I know for a fact that in this company procedure is law and religion, it’s a miracle they don’t have procedures on how to fart and burp. (I didn’t read the entire thread, having come in late.) Hm… A cunning crew could make some extra cash by ‘following procedure’. I could see a cozy arrangement with the pirates. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/318 "2009-04-12T00:11:22Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Hm… A cunning crew could make some extra cash by ‘following procedure’. I could see a cozy arrangement with the pirates. Why you have a sick mentality! I had the same idea too. 🙂 A Coen Bros type of situation. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/319 "2009-04-12T02:42:39Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Heh… > > I’m not clever enough to be the first to think of this but what are the obvious issues I’m missing with trying to put a hole or two in the bottom of the lifeboat and scooping everyone out from the water? I mean, I realize that this wouldn’t make the pirates very happy but, at that point, shooting the captain and getting taken with blood on your hands by an angry US Navy wouldn’t seem very productive. Do you know how many holes you would have to put in a life boat to sink it? They have floatation devices built into them. A life boat full of water should still stay afloat. Another end result of the Titanic. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/320 "2009-04-12T05:49:01Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > You may be right, but I’m not sure. If the world’s industrialized nations got together and made it illegal (backed up with stiff fines or even jail time) to negotiate with or pay off pirates like these, it might work. Good luck with getting everybody to agree on anything. And then enforcing it. Because I can’t see how you could effectively control it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397.md?page=17)