# Somalian Pirates Seize US Crew -- Is It On? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397 "2009-04-08T15:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/141 "2009-04-09T07:53:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Just do the math. A million square miles is 1,000 times 1,000. The Somali pirates are operating in a much smaller arena. The Gulf of Aden piracy is 75,000 square miles and the eastern coast would be in the neighborhood of 180,000 sm. I’m not sure why you think fourth grade arithmetic is a better cite than the US Navy, but I’ll just disagree and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/142 "2009-04-09T08:10:40Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > I’m not sure why you think fourth grade arithmetic is a better cite than the US Navy, but I’ll just disagree and leave it at that. You can’t disagree with math, it’s not a matter of opinion. Somalia has roughly 500 miles of northern coast and 900 miles of eastern coast. The Gulf of Aden is approximately 150 miles wide. Either the statement was a mis-speak or referred to piracy around the world which is a broader subject than this thread. Did you need to do the math when Nancy Pelosi said we were losing 500 million American jobs a month? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/143 "2009-04-09T10:25:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You can’t disagree with math, it’s not a matter of opinion. Somalia has roughly 500 miles of northern coast and 900 miles of eastern coast. The Gulf of Aden is approximately 150 miles wide. Either the statement was a mis-speak or referred to piracy around the world which is a broader subject than this thread. Nope. 600 miles of northern coast and 1200 of SE coast. Just use Google Earth. The Gulf of Aden is more like 175 miles wide. And the coastline being convex means you cannot just multiply length by width. If you add the area of all waters within a 500 mile distance from any point in the Somalian coast it adds to more than one million square miles. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/144 "2009-04-09T11:47:49Z")
Maybe it’s like the “Drug War”; you can endlessly deal with a symptom that’ll never go away as long as the root causes are there. (Though I don’t think anybody is advocating legalizing piracy.) A larger question: when did people start adding a “gh” to the end of “Arr!” when they’re doing cliched movie pirate dialect, based on stock West Country rustic characters? I keep seeing this: “Aarrgh!” Why the Hell would anybody say that? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/145 "2009-04-09T12:18:08Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > I keep seeing this: “Aarrgh!” Why the Hell would anybody say that? Carelessness while scratching with your hook? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/146 "2009-04-09T12:51:47Z")
My husband is captaining a ship from this same company, and he’s doing the West Africa route, so I have been following this for quite a few years. Luckily he’s still far from where pirates have taken ships, but I don’t know for how long. I doubt they will venture so far out of their “home ports” though. The reasons things have been done this way so far is that it works best for everybody. The pirates do not want to kill anyone, they want money. The have a vested interest in the well-being of the crew. The crew will not like to have the responsibility and risk of defending somebody else’s property. The ship owners pay extra insurance and charge it to their customers. The insurance companies want the ship and cargo returned, they make money out of this. And the governments don’t have the capability and jurisdiction to fight this, save invading Somalia. And you know how that went last time. The crew in most commercial ships is unarmed. They don’t even have a stun gun. They believe that arming the crew will bring many more problems than solutions. The ship owners oppose it. The crew oppose it. The authorities in most countries oppose it too. It is illegal in most cases to enter a port carrying weapons, just because your country gave you permission to arm yourself does not mean that the country you are entering will have the same view. My husband was in the Danish navy before becoming a merchant marine. He was an expert marksman, and he still opposes arming the crews. This is not their job. He takes the ship from port A to port B and parks it there. That’s what he gets paid for. If he had wanted to shoot at things he would have stayed in the navy. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well…the reason to _not_ go in guns blazing are the lives of 20 Americans on the ship who stand a good chance of getting killed. This. > [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > What most amazes me is that there are reportedly only about 1,000 pirates and the Somali government allows foreign forces to chase them in Somali waters. Even I can figure that the boats originate from the shoreline. Rather than pay $150,000,000 a year in ransoms why not invest it to eliminate them. They’re not hiding in Kansas. There’s no government. It is pure anarchy. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > As I mentioned above you need to make it so the likelihood of success for the pirates drops to almost zero. > > Seems a simpler solution would be to put military on the freighters. Say five guy on each with substantial weaponry capable of easily zapping these pirates as they approach. Each country puts troops on whatever freighters fly their flag. They need only do this for ships traversing hotspots, not the whole world. > > I would presume that would take less manpower and far less expense than fielding fleets of warships in the area and likely be more effective. Do you have any idea how impractical and costly this is. Who is going to pay for this? Where are you going to find the extra people to do this. How are you going to accommodate more people in a ship designed for a certain capacity? Denmark has a bigger merchant navy than a military navy, for example. Panama? Forget it. And even ships flying a flag might have crewmembers from other nationalities. Who protects those? > [@mswas](#): > > Eh, you should just give the bridge crew sidearms and put shotguns in a lockbox. You don’t need the extra expense of hiring military crews. Just allow the crew to fight back. My husband will laugh at your suggestion. The crew itself will oppose this. They are hired to do their jobs, not to play Rambo. > [@Rick](#): > > You go after the ocean going mother ships. > Here is how. You take a US Navy cargo / oilier and paint it so it does not look like a US Navy ship. You load it with a SEAL Team. > You sail it a 150-200 miles off the coast. You shadow it with either a 688 class attack sub or a frigate just over the horizon. > You wait for the mother ship to show up and launch the small boats to capture their prize. > When the pirates are boarding you let the SEALS do what SEALS do. At the same time you have the sub torpedo the mother ship, or have the frigate launch a anti ship missile. > Either way there is one less mother ship available for the next attack, and the bad guys have no idea why. > Wait about a week lather rinse and repeat. This is possibly illegal. Will you attack these ships pre-emptively? Because if they have not attacked you then you would not know if they are pirates. And if they do then it’s too late, you resist and soon you might find your ship is sinking fast. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > In case you missed it, I said the _pirate’s_ vessel. Hopefully with all the pirates aboard, and ideally before they can board the target vessel. And how do you know they are pirates? They don’t wear a uniform? That’s the problem. Small vessels approach large ships all the time, only rarely are they pirates. You find out when/if you see them trying to board your ship. By then they are in a good position of making a hole in your ship. > [@Magiver](#): > > Just do the math. A million square miles is 1,000 times 1,000. The Somali pirates are operating in a much smaller arena. The Gulf of Aden piracy is 75,000 square miles and the eastern coast would be in the neighborhood of 180,000 sm. > > Unless a crew is completely taken by surprise they are able to transmit their position with exact coordinates. At this point it would be easy for a Global Hawk to transition to station and remain there. any ship close to the pirated vessel is tracked. It’s only a matter of time before the launch ship is identified. Ships broadcast their particulars at all times. It’s been like that for a while. It’s extremely easy for a pirate ship to know even how many crewmembers in a ship, and the type of cargo and tonnage before they approach. Small boats do, of course, broadcast nothing. So you know nothing about them. If you have any question you’d like to pose my husband you can ask me and I’ll email him. It may take a day for me to reply as he might be on duty at the time he gets the email. But maybe you want to ask an actual captain, from the same company as this ship, one navigating not so far from there. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/147 "2009-04-09T12:55:46Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And the shipping companies pay the ransoms not for the expendable crewmembers, but for the multimillion dollar ships. If the pirates just held the Bangladeshi crews for ransom the shippers would tell them to pound sand. But the shippers want the ship back. The crew wants to live. The pirates want money. And so paying ransom suits everybody, except the next guy who gets attacked by pirates. Not sure I agree. If the company that owned the ship wanted the ship back without regard to human life they could just hire a bunch of heavies to take it back. If people get harmed in the process it shouldn’t matter then, right? I think their foremost goal is to get the crew back in one piece (AND the ship) otherwise you could never hire another crew to operate your ships again. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/148 "2009-04-09T12:57:35Z")
In the classic age of piracy the root of the problem was getting rid of the safe havens. You can attack pirate vessels on sight, you can patrol the waters constantly, but the problem is that pirates don’t come wearing distinctive costumes and flying distinctive flags like they do in the movies. And so every fishing vessel is a potential pirate ship. And like in the classic age of piracy the pirates have a safe haven on land. The pirates come home with lots of money and spread it around, and their neighbors are very happy. And so the villagers aren’t going to point out the pirates if the USMC comes knocking. Sure, sending more ships and stepping up patrols is a good thing, and will probably prevent a lot of piracy. But they won’t do that by catching pirates and blowing their ships out of the water. Instead pirates will lay low until the navy is gone. If the naval presence is heavy enough you could possibly reduce the rewards of piracy so much that it stops being a cottage industry in Somalia. Another possibility is to prevent shipping companies from paying ransoms. Once a ship is hijacked, the incentive for the company is to pay even though that encourages future piracy. And so perhaps we force the shippers to eat the cost of a few sunken ships and a few crews massacred. Remove the choice to pay the ransom and you’ll find fewer people lining up to demand a ransom. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/149 "2009-04-09T13:02:36Z")
> [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > Not sure I agree. If the company that owned the ship wanted the ship back without regard to human life they could just hire a bunch of heavies to take it back. If people get harmed in the process it shouldn’t matter then, right? > I think their foremost goal is to get the crew back in one piece (AND the ship) otherwise you could never hire another crew to operate your ships again. Absolutely! In fact your navy will be happy to help if lives were not in danger. But what do you think will happen at home if the company allowed the crew to be harmed out of greed? The cargo and ship are insured, but my husband’s employer has at times done extraordinary things to protect their crew. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/150 "2009-04-09T13:05:24Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And so perhaps we force the shippers to eat the cost of a few sunken ships and a few crews massacred. Well, sure. What the hell, it’s not like the crewmembers have any family and friends at home who care. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/151 "2009-04-09T13:12:54Z")
> [@Uncommon\_Sense](#): > > Not sure I agree. If the company that owned the ship wanted the ship back without regard to human life they could just hire a bunch of heavies to take it back. If people get harmed in the process it shouldn’t matter then, right? > I think their foremost goal is to get the crew back in one piece (AND the ship) otherwise you could never hire another crew to operate your ships again. Most of the crewmembers are from third world countries and make a pittance by western standards. There are hundreds of millions of poor people around the world that would jump at the chance for one of these jobs despite the danger. They don’t have any illusions about their value to the companies that own the ships. Look, it’s not like the owners are complete and total bastards, but no company is going to pay a ransom to a criminal that kidnaps one of their employees. They’ll turn the matter over to the police. They don’t have any obligation to pay, nor do they have an obligation to mount a commando raid to rescue a kidnapped employee. It’s not like there is an option where the companies could get their ships back without paying ransom at the cost of the crew’s lives. The pirates aren’t holding the crews hostage, they are holding the ships hostage. A few RPGs and the ship heads of the bottom of the Gulf of Aden. The wikipedia article as a good run down of the naval presence in the region: [Piracy off the coast of Somalia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_Somalia#Anti-piracy_measures) ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/152 "2009-04-09T13:22:21Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Most of the crewmembers are from third world countries and make a pittance by western standards. Ah. That’s OK then. Those people are not worth much. And you are wrong, while the crew tend to be from poorer countries the navigators are not. And who do you think the pirates are going to threaten if they need to, the Philippine deck painter or the Danish captain? The company pays because there is an implicit understanding that they will do that and more to have the crew returned safely. Otherwise no, they will not get any crew. You have no understanding of navigators unions then. ---
**Author:** ![Oliveritaly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oliveritaly/32/15233_2.png) [@Oliveritaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oliveritaly)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/153 "2009-04-09T13:33:14Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > My husband is captaining a ship \ one navigating not so far from there. Mighty Girl, Long, long, long time lurker (very rarely a poster) but I wanted to say wow, thank you for that explanation of what a lot of us were likely thinking (sailor for one) but could not (or just did not) articulate. I’ve worked for years in military operations centers (as a public affairs person no less) and all I could think about in regards to some of these plans was, “wow that is going to be a brutal press conference.” Finally I hope your husband is staying safe! Oliveritaly ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/154 "2009-04-09T14:11:37Z")
Oliveritaly, thanks. It’s easy to Monday-morning quarterback this, but people have to understand that smarter heads than ours are thinking about this at all times. So far the cost of letting this continue has been deemed sufficiently low that no extreme measures have been taken, even by countries who are not particularly high on the “human rights scale”. There is a reason for that. And another thing you might not know, there might be “civilians” in these ships. Children even. I guess you didn’t know that. I have traveled with my husband, the last time I was visibly pregnant. I would have made quite the hostage. Luckily there were no pirates in Philly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/155 "2009-04-09T14:21:23Z")
If it were easy or cheap, or simply a matter of sending a few warships to the region then the problem would already have been solved. The US and several other nations have warships in the area…and yet these things are still happening. It would take a major fleet commitment by the US (or a combined US/EU/Indian/other fleet) working in concert to really start to impact these guys…and even that would deter them only, it’s not going to completely shut them down. Not until the deterrence is at such a level as it’s no longer profitable to continue over a long enough period of time. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/156 "2009-04-09T14:21:26Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > And how do you know they are pirates? They don’t wear a uniform? Heck, if you want a _perfect_ solution, why don’t we use our paralyzer beam to harmlessly zap everybody in Somalia, then walk in and take away their guns and machetes and whatnot. Then when they wake up, they’ll have to settle their differences with pillowfights. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/157 "2009-04-09T14:23:23Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Denmark has a bigger merchant navy than a military navy, for example. And to add some actual cites: > [@](#): > > [Danish Foreign Ministry](http://www.ambsingapore.um.dk/en/menu/CommercialServices/MarketOpportunities/News/DenmarksMerchantFleetForecastToGrowBy50In5Years.htm) > With 300 ships currently on order, the Danish Shipowners’ Association forecasts that Denmark’s merchant fleet is expected to grow by 50% over the next 5 years. > [@](#): > > [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Danish_Navy) > The Danish navy currently operates 12 larger vessels (displacement \> 1,500 t(m)), 4 medium-size vessels (1,500 t(m) \> displacement \> 500 t(m)) and 38 small vessels (500 t(m) \> displacement \> 15 t(m)) as well as a number of RHIB’s, boats etc. > > The navy ships programs is generally a “newer but fewer”-programs. And the crew in the merchant ships are a mixture of nationalities. There are Americans navigating in Danish-flagged ships. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/158 "2009-04-09T14:27:29Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Another possibility is to prevent shipping companies from paying ransoms. Once a ship is hijacked, the incentive for the company is to pay even though that encourages future piracy. And so perhaps we force the shippers to eat the cost of a few sunken ships and a few crews massacred. Remove the choice to pay the ransom and you’ll find fewer people lining up to demand a ransom. Not gonna happen. It’d be like shooting down a high-jacked plane with passengers on board. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/159 "2009-04-09T14:30:44Z")
Huh…kill them all. Og will surely know her own… _waggle waggle_ -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397/160 "2009-04-09T14:32:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Heck, if you want a _perfect_ solution, why don’t we use our paralyzer beam to harmlessly zap everybody in Somalia, then walk in and take away their guns and machetes and whatnot. Then when they wake up, they’ll have to settle their differences with pillowfights. 🙂 Hey, I have an idea. How about we make it illegal to pirate without wearing an uniform, complete with peg leg and eye patch? It’s as easy a solution as some others I have read here. And just as stupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somalian-pirates-seize-us-crew-is-it-on/492397.md?page=9)