# Some Basic Football (Soccer) Questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 24, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733 "2005-02-24T17:31:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/61 "2005-02-26T20:21:31Z")
> [@Usram](#): > > I’m a little surprised that our resident Swansea City fan **Vetch** hasn’t popped in to tell us all about his team’s meteoric rise from the old Fourth Division to the very top of the league within the space of four seasons, during John Toshack’s glorious reign of 1978 to 1983. Perhaps it’s because they were soon relegated all the way back to where they came from. Makes a nice parabola if you plot their league position on a graph. Is there a decent book available that covers this? I would be interested in reading more about it (along with similar meteoric rises/drops). Also, can anyone comment on teams that have dropped like stones from the once elite to the lower depths. I’ve heard some things about York, who (if I recall correctly) were once in the first division (pre-Premeir) and are today battling to stop from dropping down into the Conference. What happened and are there any other examples? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/62 "2005-02-26T20:28:41Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > ever heard of the Old Firm? Only one half of the Old Firm has problem fans. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/63 "2005-02-26T20:45:14Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Only one half of the Old Firm has problem fans. I don’t even know for which side you’re claiming this to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/64 "2005-02-26T21:08:50Z")
re: hooliganism England still has some problems with this. If you recall France '98, English fans and Tunisian fans before a match got into a huge brawl. So it is still a concern, though not as much. I will say, though, that when Galatasary came to Leeds in that Champions League tourney, I was expecting worse since two Leeds fans were stabbed in Turkey in the first leg. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/65 "2005-02-26T22:38:52Z")
> [@eponymous](#): > > Is there a decent book available that covers this? I would be interested in reading more about it (along with similar meteoric rises/drops). > > Also, can anyone comment on teams that have dropped like stones from the once elite to the lower depths. I’ve heard some things about York, who (if I recall correctly) were once in the first division (pre-Premeir) and are today battling to stop from dropping down into the Conference. What happened and are there any other examples? I don’t remember York City ever being more than a minor club. Never a premiership team, or equivalent. York itself is not a major city. There are plenty of once-great teams who are now struggling. Sheffield Wednesday’s stadium was, in its day, considered one of the best in England. Leeds United won the Championship several times in the 1960’s/70s with one of the best English sides ever, and came close to winning the European championship more than once. They’re now a cash-strapped second tier team. Nottingham Forest, twice European champions, look like they’re going to be relegated to the third division. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/66 "2005-02-26T22:55:32Z")
To be fair to Leeds, they are only 4 points from a playoffs spot in the Championship Division. If they can make it back to the Premier League, some of their cash problems may be alleviated. Sad story for them though. They developed a good number of talent in their day (Jonathan Woodgate, Alan Smith, etc) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/67 "2005-02-26T23:15:53Z")
> [@Usram](#): > > I don’t remember York City ever being more than a minor club. Never a premiership team, or equivalent. York itself is not a major city. Their finest moment was once reaching the FA Cup semis. However, how does being a ‘major city’ come into it? Middlesbrough, Bolton, Blackburn, all in the premiership?! ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/68 "2005-02-27T00:24:20Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Their finest moment was once reaching the FA Cup semis. However, how does being a ‘major city’ come into it? Middlesbrough, Bolton, Blackburn, all in the premiership?! I don’t get your point. Those places are arguably/actually cities. **eponymous** appears to think that York City might be a fallen giant. I’m correcting him/her, and I i,agine that he or she has be expecting York City to be I don’t know what you’re getting at. **eponymous** seemed to be under the impression that York City FC should be an important club, perhaps imagining that York is still an important citybecause York is one of the English cities that foreigners have heard of. an impression that I was keen to dispel. and I was attempting to dispel whatin particular, ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/69 "2005-02-27T00:28:08Z")
Fucking hell. I clicked Submit when I meant to click Preview. Welcome to my thought processes. I feel kind of naked now. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/70 "2005-02-27T00:43:27Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Only one half of the Old Firm has problem fans. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/71 "2005-02-27T00:44:40Z")
> [@Usram](#): > > I don’t get your point. Those places are arguably/actually cities. **eponymous** appears to think that York City might be a fallen giant. I’m correcting him/her, and I i,agine that he or she has > be expecting York City to be > I don’t know what you’re getting at. **eponymous** seemed to be under the impression that York City FC should be an important club, perhaps imagining that York is still an important citybecause York is one of the English cities that foreigners have heard of. > an impression that I was keen to dispel. > > and I was attempting to dispel whatin particular, Bolton and Blackburn aren’t cities. ---
**Author:** ![mamboman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mamboman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mamboman)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/72 "2005-02-27T03:17:09Z")
In the mid 1980’s there were lots of smaller clubs doing very well in the top flight - Luton, Swansea, Watford, Ipswich, Coventry, QPR, Oxford, Charlton, Wimbledon were all up there, winning things and making cup finals. Ipswich even won a UEFA cup. And smaller clubs like Aberdeen and Dundee United were giving the Glasgow behemoths a run for there money in the chilly north. When I first became a football supporter, Derby County were Champions of England, Manchester United were in the second division and Everton were the richest club in the land. there were no non-British players in the league, and there weren’t even any black players in the top flight - what a different world! I’m ambivalent about the premierships impact on football in England. It was argued it would raise the standard of football, but I don’t think it has. In the 15 years before the Premiership, English clubs won 8 European Cups (Liverpool 5 Forest 2 and Aston Villa 1). In 12 years since, they have won 1. There don’t seem to be nearly as many playes capable of running at defenders any more and even now I see teams going out without any players even capable of passing the football any distance (and as an Everton supporter I know what I’m talking about 🙂 ) whereas 20 years ago teams were built around such players (Hoddle, Brady, Currie et al). Italian football is so much more attractive (unless Juve are playing) and Spanish teams much technically better. I don’t know if the Premiership, per se, has anything to do with this, but the game does seem less romantic and attractive in England than it did 20 years ago. Oh dear, I appear to have ranted… mm ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/73 "2005-02-27T09:48:06Z")
Re: the “Old Firm” (a phrase I hate in any case), Celtic fans go abroad and pick up [FIFA](http://www.fifa.com/en/mens/awards/index/0,3310,73589,00.html?articleid=73589) and [“[http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/3189853.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/c/celtic/3189853.stm)”]UEFA awards. Rangers fans travel and cities [shut down](http://ww1.eveningtimes.co.uk/hi/news/5020719.html). Their nickname “the Huns” derives from the treatment they’ve been known to mete out to the cities they visit. I’m not denying that Celtic have a few bad apples among our support but we don’t have the significant hooliganism problem that **shelbo** was asking about. People assume that because the two clubs are rivals, somehow they’re mirror images of each other. This is not the case and it’s an assumption that really annoys us. A lot of Celtic fans refuse to even use the term “Old Firm” because it seems to further that assumption. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/74 "2005-02-27T09:50:46Z")
Bollocks. Can some mod fix that second link? ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/75 "2005-02-27T10:12:35Z")
Re the “Old Firm” - if you have access to the BBC - specifically BBC1 they have a documentary on this tonight, which may well show that **ruadh’s** specs are also ruadh-tinted. I’ve been to some ferocious matches over the years but nothing I have experienced has come close to the hatred of a celtic rangers match - I was genuinely scared (I was with the Celtic fans). ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/76 "2005-02-27T11:25:23Z")
I don’t have BBC but in general programmes like this try to be “balanced” so I wouldn’t be surprised if they pick out the occasional incidents by the bad apples in the Celtic support and portray them as evidence of each side being as bad as the other. You could make _any_ club look like it had a serious hooliganism problem this way. UEFA, FIFA, Villarreal (whose fans formed an official Celtic Supporters Club after we played them in the UEFA Cup last year), Seville and Lyon (both of whose fans put up websites praising the behaviour of our travelling support) - they all say differently. You don’t have to take my word for it. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/77 "2005-02-27T14:39:53Z")
I might add that I’m also a season ticket holder with my local club, Bohemians, who I freely acknowledge have one of the worst hooligan problems in Ireland (I’d actually put them in the top three, at least in the 26-County league). So it’s not that I refuse to see that the club I support has a hooligan problem. Celtic just really _don’t_. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/78 "2005-02-27T20:16:56Z")
I was once watching an England game with some friends, which included a Scottish colleague. I asked why she was there cheering for England, having assumed that Scotland and England were more rivals than friends. She told me no, that if Scotland were playing the English would be cheering for them. Is this true or wishful thinking on her part? Same question as regards Ireland and those two countries. Do England fans even care about the outcome of either of these other two teams? I ask since it seems at other events that the English have given the Scots quite a hard time. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/79 "2005-02-27T20:56:14Z")
If it doesn’t affect England’s position, then English fans will quite happily support any of the other British & Irish teams. The reverse doesn’t happen - many Scottish, Welsh and Irish fans will support anybody opposing England. Your friend is a something of a rarity… (Not sure about Northern Ireland fans, though: things obviously get rather complicated with that one.) ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/80 "2005-02-27T21:13:03Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > I was once watching an England game with some friends, which included a Scottish colleague. I asked why she was there cheering for England, having assumed that Scotland and England were more rivals than friends. She told me no, that if Scotland were playing the English would be cheering for them. Is this true or wishful thinking on her part? Same question as regards Ireland and those two countries. Do England fans even care about the outcome of either of these other two teams? I ask since it seems at other events that the English have given the Scots quite a hard time. Total wishful thinking, although props to your friend for being a Scots sports fan with a mature outlook. I live in Scotland (I’m english) and can attest to the vast majority of Scottish sports fans being rabidly anti-english. Typical behaviour for football matches will involve going out and purchasing the shirt of England’s opponents (pitying shake of the head), donning it and getting down to the boozer to bellow invective at england playing on the TV. I saw plenty of Portugal shirts on the backs of Scotsmen last summer. Given that the Scottish football team is currently a disgrace to the nation, I guess it makes sense for Scottish fans to vent their anti-english sentiment vicariously. Unfotunately, such behaviour is the quintessence of a “small-time” mentality, and just reinforces english feelings of innate sporting superiority. Whether Irish fans would ever cheer for England is an interesting question, and I am sure some of the posters in this thread will be along to tell you what they think of that. Any anti-english sentiment would surely have to be tempered by the fact many of the Irish team are: a) english and b) have played all their career in the EPL. Personally I don’t take international football that seriously - the football is usually shite and I find most england fans to be fairly objectionable. I’ll cheer for whoever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733.md?page=5)