# Some Basic Football (Soccer) Questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 24, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733 "2005-02-24T17:31:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/81 "2005-02-28T05:55:24Z")
> [@Myler Keogh](#): > > Any anti-english sentiment would surely have to be tempered by the fact many of the Irish team are: a) english and b) have played all their career in the EPL. For the most part, it isn’t tempered by that at all. Most Ireland supporters see no contradiction whatsoever in supporting English clubs, and cheering on English-born players in the green jersey, while simultaneously despising the England national team. There are of course _some_ Irish fans who will support England (so long as they’re not playing Ireland), but they’re a distinct minority. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/82 "2005-02-28T09:59:18Z")
The Panorama programme I mentioned turned out to be more about Scotland (and specificaly West Scotland’s) problems with sectarianism. The general football issue was that these are people who want to fight one another all the time - but use the football games as a battleground. Neither side came out of it well - they both look like medieval bigots. On the subjecy of ABE (anyone but England) fans - there are plenty of them. What’s worse most of them support Manchester bloody United, and have taken to chanting “Argentina” at their games. And they wonder why they’re not liked. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/83 "2005-02-28T12:05:50Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > The Panorama programme I mentioned turned out to be more about Scotland (and specificaly West Scotland’s) problems with sectarianism. The general football issue was that these are people who want to fight one another all the time - but use the football games as a battleground. Neither side came out of it well - they both look like medieval bigots. I’ve just watched it on the BBC website, and I agree that neither came out of it well. But, to repeat the point I made earlier, there isn’t a club in the world that would look good if you went looking in _juvenile detention homes_, as the BBC did, for fans of theirs to interview. Just to correct a couple factual errors: “hun” and “tim” are football terms and not sectarian terms in Glasgow; Celtic was not founded by an Irish priest (a Marist Brother yes but not a priest); and the singing during the 9/11 minute’s silence took place _outside the ground_ by fans who wouldn’t have known the silence was being held inside. In fairness, I wouldn’t doubt if there were errors reported about the Rangers fans too, because sensationalism was obviously a greater concern of the producers than accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/84 "2005-02-28T12:07:18Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > On the subjecy of ABE (anyone but England) fans - there are plenty of them. What’s worse most of them support Manchester bloody United, and have taken to chanting “Argentina” at their games. And they wonder why they’re not liked. The Man U fans who do this would say that the reason they don’t support England is that their players are constantly booed when they play for England, on account of being Manchester players. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/85 "2005-02-28T12:20:20Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > “hun” and “tim” are football terms and not sectarian terms in Glasgow Hmmmm. I certainly can’t agree with you there. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/86 "2005-02-28T13:30:04Z")
Well, I don’t know about how the Rangers fans use the terms, but when Celtic fans talk about “huns” we mean Rangers fans. Jock Stein wasn’t a hun. Paul Lambert isn’t a hun. The largely Protestant supporters of Aberdeen, Dundee and most other Scottish clubs aren’t huns. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/87 "2005-02-28T14:19:43Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Re: the “Old Firm” (a phrase I hate in any case), Celtic fans go abroad and pick up awards. Rangers fans travel and cities shut down. Very fair comparison :rolleyes: . The shutting down was on advice from the local police due to fears of a repeat of trouble from the previous match involving _Manchester_ fans at Ranger’s ground. Is this best example you have??? Perhaps you could quote us evidence of the resulting trouble at this game or others. Hmmm??? > [@](#): > > Their nickname “the Huns” derives from the treatment they’ve been known to mete out to the cities they visit. Not so much a nickname as a term of abuse. But let’s not split hairs. :rolleyes: And have you got a cite for that, or is it another “fact” you’ve pulled out your green and white bunnet? > [@](#): > > I’m not denying that Celtic have a few bad apples among our support but we don’t have the significant hooliganism problem that **shelbo** was asking about. People assume that because the two clubs are rivals, somehow they’re mirror images of each other. This is not the case and it’s an assumption that really annoys us. A lot of Celtic fans refuse to even use the term “Old Firm” because it seems to further that assumption. Saints! Everyone of the hooped army, so they are! Compared to those nasty, rough Rangers boys! Before you ask, no, I’m not a Rangers fan. But like everyone else familiar with Scottish football, I can recognise the Celtic chip on the shoulder complex. It wissnae us - everyone’s against us - we’re innocent angels. The fact is that Celtic, like all the biggest football clubs throught the world, have their fair share of idiots. And the same goes for Rangers. They’re no different. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/88 "2005-02-28T14:53:05Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > The shutting down was on advice from the local police due to fears of a repeat of trouble from the previous match involving Manchester fans at Ranger’s ground. What, the Manchester fans were getting in trouble all on their own? So how come there wasn’t any trouble when they visited Celtic Park a few years ago? > [@](#): > > Perhaps you could quote us evidence of the resulting trouble at this game or others. Hmmm??? The point was that strenous efforts were made to ensure that there wouldn’t be any trouble. The same doesn’t happen when we travel south because it doesn’t _have_ to happen. I notice you didn’t ask the previous posters who stated that both Celtic and Rangers fans are troublemakers to provide evidence. Why is that? > [@](#): > > And have you got a cite for that, or is it another “fact” you’ve pulled out your green and white bunnet? It’s the memory of the many older Celtic fans who remember this as the origin of the term. It is of course possible that they could be wrong, but it’s the most (in fact, only) logical explanation I have ever encountered for the term, and I have seen no evidence to the contrary. > [@](#): > > Saints! Everyone of the hooped army, so they are! :rolleyes: Yes, that’s exactly what I said. > [@](#): > > The fact is that Celtic, like all the biggest football clubs throught the world, have their fair share of idiots. And the same goes for Rangers. They’re no different. I didn’t say we didn’t have idiots. I do dispute that we have as many idiots as Rangers, just as an English Doper earlier disputed that Everton have as many idiots as Millwall. Those clubs _are_ different to each other and so are we to Rangers. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/89 "2005-02-28T17:28:19Z")
Oh dear where to start? Firstly my mothers family lives in the west of Scotland (Glasgow. Lanark and Motherwell) in prime Celtic/Rangers territory (they’re left footed so support Celtic), and I have relative that played for Celtic (and - oh the shame! - Arsenal). So I have a vague idea what I’m on about (I also have “previous” for “football related”, but that was a long time ago). I would say that “Hun” and “tim” are most certainly sectarian terms - up there with “taig” etc. It’s a lot different to calling Spurs fans “yids” for instance. Secondly Rangers fans are certainly up for a fight - in fact they go looking for one (and when they play spurs they get one - we’ve had many barneys over the years). Celtic fans aren’t in this league - but they aren’t shy of having a go. Frankly if you don’t think that there’s a serious firm at Celtic, you’ve been wandering around with your eyes shut. Here’s a site (bear in mind that, outside of ITK, a “casual” site is an oxymoron) which might give you an idea: [http://www.terracelinks.cjb.net/](http://www.terracelinks.cjb.net/) ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/90 "2005-02-28T21:14:11Z")
> [@owlstretchingtime](#): > > I would say that “Hun” and “tim” are most certainly sectarian terms - up there with “taig” etc. FFS Celtic fans call _ourselves_ Tims, there’s even a shop near CP called “Timland”. I’ve never heard a Celtic fan object to it and if Rangers are attempting to use it to denigrate us they’re wasting their time. To describe it as being on a par with “taig” is nonsensical. As for “hun”, it means Rangers supporter. End of. The only people I ever hear use it to mean “Protestant” are from Derry, not Glasgow. > [@](#): > > Celtic fans aren’t in this league - but they aren’t shy of having a go. Frankly if you don’t think that there’s a serious firm at Celtic, you’ve been wandering around with your eyes shut. I know that there are Celtic casuals who fancy themselves a “firm”. I also know that they do not, as a rule, cause the kind of problems that Millwall or Cardiff’s “firms” do. I actually go to Celtic games, you don’t, so I’m more qualified to speak on this than you are. Apologies to the OP for a tangent that must be boring the shite out of him by now. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/91 "2005-02-28T21:31:23Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > The only people I ever hear use it to mean “Protestant” are from Derry, not Glasgow. > … > I actually go to Celtic games, you don’t, so I’m more qualified to speak on this than you are. Whether you go to the matches doesn’t change the fact that you’re simply wrong by saying ‘hun’ is not used as a sectarian term in Glasgow. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/92 "2005-02-28T21:55:31Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > The point was that strenous efforts were made to ensure that there wouldn’t be any trouble. The same doesn’t happen when we travel south because it doesn’t _have_ to happen. It doesn’t _have_ to happen for any supporters. This was decision made by the Manchester police, on one occasion. But your post attempted to give the impression that it was normal practice, just like Celtic supporters garnered awards from all corners with every happy jaunt abroad. Reality isn’t like this. > [@](#): > > I notice you didn’t ask the previous posters who stated that both Celtic and Rangers fans are troublemakers to provide evidence. Why is that? Because it wasn’t worth it, an inconsequential opinion that wasn’t worth rising to. > [@](#): > > It’s the memory of the many older Celtic fans who remember this as the origin of the term. It is of course possible that they could be wrong, but it’s the most (in fact, only) logical explanation I have ever encountered for the term, and I have seen no evidence to the contrary. Well this is a poor show from an intelligent doper. 5 minutes googling will give you more than a few far better historically researched explanations. It’s a term of sectarian abuse, certainly not the worse you’ll ever hear, but one all the same. So your attempt to make it a fitting and deserved “nickname” to support your shakey argument doesn’t do you justice. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: Yes, that’s exactly what I said. I was using comedic hyperbole. > [@](#): > > I didn’t say we didn’t have idiots. I do dispute that we have as many idiots as Rangers, just as an English Doper earlier disputed that Everton have as many idiots as Millwall. Those clubs _are_ different to each other and so are we to Rangers. Well you’re entitled to your opinion. Sorry, **ruadh** , I don’t want to have any fallings out. It’s just tiresome when any discussion of football here inevitably deteriorates down the same path. What about those English hooligans - well what about the Old Firm - but not Celtic, they’re lovely. Everyone gets to feel better about their team, and no-one’s as bad as the daemon Rangers who not only kick other supporters, but frail old nuns as well. Getting rid of the _minority_ hooligans, and the bigots, means everyone facing up to the ugly facts and not simply comforting themselves that they’re not as bad as the other lot. Step one would be admitting that ‘hun’ is a sectarian term. Step two would be keeping the football threads on topic and not falling for the old ‘your hooligans are worse than ours’ diversion. Step three, everyone apologise to the OP **shelbo**. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/93 "2005-02-28T23:30:47Z")
> [@Usram](#): > > I don’t know what you’re getting at. **eponymous** seemed to be under the impression that York City FC should be an important club, perhaps imagining that York is still an important citybecause York is one of the English cities that foreigners have heard of. Thanks - I wasn’t under the impression that York FC _should_ be an important club, but rather were they once a team in Divison One that had fallen on hard times and dropped down to lower divisions. Having just perused the York City FC website, it appears that they have never been a football power (made it to Division 2 a couple of times). In any event, I’ve been sufficiently dispelled the notion of York ever being a football power (don’t remember why I thought they were - must have misread something several years ago). Nottingham Forest is probably the best example given (at least to me at least - former power fighting to stave off relegation to League 2). ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/94 "2005-03-01T01:01:45Z")
You could be thinking of Leeds United. Leeds is the largest city in Yorkshire, which might account for the confusion. Leeds have indeed taken a tumble, although, as already noted, they could get back into the Premiership through the play-offs. Their glory years were the late 60s/early 70s, when they had a team famed for its uncompromising approach, with the likes of Norman “Bites Yer Legs” Hunter, Billy Bremner and Johnny Giles. Their most skillful player was arguably Eddie Gray, who proceeded as manager over the last rites of Leeds as a top-flight side. Perennial under-achievers, they won the championship only once during their glory years (1973-74), theur aging side being beaten in the final of the European Cup the following year. They won the Championship again the last year before the EPL was formed (1991-92), with a certain Eric Cantona proving the catalyst. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/95 "2005-03-01T01:02:54Z")
[“presided” even] ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/96 "2005-03-01T02:29:14Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > You could be thinking of Leeds United. Leeds is the largest city in Yorkshire, which might account for the confusion. Leeds have indeed taken a tumble, although, as already noted, they could get back into the Premiership through the play-offs. Their glory years were the late 60s/early 70s, when they had a team famed for its uncompromising approach, with the likes of Norman “Bites Yer Legs” Hunter, Billy Bremner and Johnny Giles. Their most skillful player was arguably Eddie Gray, who proceeded as manager over the last rites of Leeds as a top-flight side. Perennial under-achievers, they won the championship only once during their glory years (1973-74), theur aging side being beaten in the final of the European Cup the following year. They won the Championship again the last year before the EPL was formed (1991-92), with a certain Eric Cantona proving the catalyst. Possibly - although I am a bit more familiar with Leeds (they being the team in EPL I began learning more about as I re-aquainted myself with football/soccer in greater detail during World Cup 2002). More likely it’s Sheffield U. or Sheffield Wednesday as I don’t really know much about each (other than they were once prominent teams - Sheffield U now in the Championship and, correct me if I’m wrong, Sheff Wed in League 1). Leeds is an interesting example - when I first began learning more about the team, they had (at one time - 2000 or 2001) the following players (from memory, so excuse me if I slip up): Dominic Matteo, Oliver Dacourt, Danny Mills, Jonathan Woodgate, Rio Ferdinand, Lee Bowyer, Harry Kewell, Robbie Keane, Robbie Fowler, Alan Smith, Mark Viduka, Paul Robinson, and Nigel Martyn. All are now gone - just think where they’d be if they still had all of the above players!! Studying/following Leeds is how I learned about how great a player Rio Ferdinand is, and also learned about the potential stardom of Robinson and Smith. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/97 "2005-03-01T02:47:12Z")
> [@eponymous](#): > > More likely it’s Sheffield U. or Sheffield Wednesday as I don’t really know much about each (other than they were once prominent teams - Sheffield U now in the Championship and, correct me if I’m wrong, Sheff Wed in League 1). This reminds me – where did the name Sheffield Wednesday come from? Is that the day they were founded, or does this mean something in “real English”? ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/98 "2005-03-01T06:23:16Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > But your post attempted to give the impression that it was normal practice, just like Celtic supporters garnered awards from all corners with every happy jaunt abroad. Reality isn’t like this. I grant that I was picking out the extreme examples, but I do consider them indicative of a pattern. > [@](#): > > 5 minutes googling will give you more than a few far better historically researched explanations. OK, let’s see them. > [@](#): > > Step one would be admitting that ‘hun’ is a sectarian term. I can’t “admit” something that is not, IME, the case. I do not hear it being used as a sectarian term by Celtic supporters in Glasgow. I won’t say that nobody has ever used it as such, but most don’t and if you were to go on a Celtic list/board and do so you’d be slapped down immediately. Why don’t you try it and see? ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/99 "2005-03-01T06:40:05Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > This reminds me – where did the name Sheffield Wednesday come from? Is that the day they were founded, or does this mean something in “real English”? The original football club (which didn’t play at Hillsborough) was the daughter club of the original Wednesday Cricket Club, so named because it met on Wednesday afternoon. The club sort of formalised “Sheffield” in its title as time went by, and they entered various national league competitions. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733/100 "2005-03-01T17:15:23Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > For the most part, it isn’t tempered by that at all. Most Ireland supporters see no contradiction whatsoever in supporting English clubs, and cheering on English-born players in the green jersey, while simultaneously despising the England national team. > > There are of course _some_ Irish fans who will support England (so long as they’re not playing Ireland), but they’re a distinct minority. I agree. Though it is interesting to see that the English leagues _are_ followed over here and that many Irish people will have a favourite English _team_, the ubiquitous Man United being particular popular, especially with young kids. But if it’s national teams they still will usually not support England. On a different tack, my favourite book about football (sorry, soccer sounds just wrong to me) is Tim Parks’ [A Year With Verona](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1559706813/qid=1109697875/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-1577263-7176904?v=glance&s=books) in which he follows the ups and down of this smaller Italian team. Cannot be read as a “history of football” as such, but does provide plenty of insight into football fan culture as well as into Italian culture. I highly recommend it even if your interest in football is, like mine, only a passing one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-basic-football-soccer-questions/291733.md?page=6)