# Some Christians and Alcohol Consumption **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2020, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549 "2020-08-20T05:58:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/21 "2020-08-20T15:45:59Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > I’ve had two day binges, but not one where I slept with relatives for two days. Yeah I’m good for one day, tops. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/22 "2020-08-20T15:54:10Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Yeah I’m good for one day, tops. If you’re passed out drunk, wouldn’t you be on the bottom? ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/23 "2020-08-20T16:15:00Z")
They didn’t have refrigeration 2000 years ago so there was no “non-alcoholic grape juice” outside of harvest season. Alcohol being considered bad is a cultural taboo not a Christian one. It’s similar to those in the USA who thought playing cards was always evil. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/24 "2020-08-20T16:19:21Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > …Let’s see: old man, passing out drunk yet he can get it up _twice_. I suspect God Himself had a hand (snerk) in this uncredited miracle. It was on two different nights…and after he had passed out. There’s also some evidence suggesting his daughters may have thought everyone else on earth had been wiped out and it was only the 3 of them left. Still…yikes. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/25 "2020-08-20T16:31:38Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Yeah I’m good for one day, tops. Maybe you need better looking relatives or stronger drinks. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/26 "2020-08-20T16:34:53Z")
> [@bump](#): > > So basically it’s the same thing they’ve been doing all along- taking some sort of behavior that they don’t like, (incorrectly) wrapping it in religion, and lending prohibitionist efforts that weight, and then trying to force everyone else to toe that line. A a more neutral way of phrasing that might be that when drunkenness gets out of hand, it’s easier for the guardians of morality to proscribe alcohol entirely. I grew up Catholic, and it’s true they do like their alcohol, but consider drunkenness to be morally bad. Martin Luther was notable for his enjoyment of beer, so Lutherans have roughly the same attitude. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/27 "2020-08-20T17:24:28Z")
Paul preaches against drunkenness: # 1 Corinthians 5:11 New International Version _11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people._ # 1 Timothy 3:8 New International Version _8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain._ ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/28 "2020-08-20T17:43:56Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > > [@bump](#): > > > > So basically it’s the same thing they’ve been doing all along- taking some sort of behavior that they don’t like, (incorrectly) wrapping it in religion, and lending prohibitionist efforts that weight, and then trying to force everyone else to toe that line. > > A a more neutral way of phrasing that might be that when drunkenness gets out of hand, it’s easier for the guardians of morality to proscribe alcohol entirely. > > I grew up Catholic, and it’s true they do like their alcohol, but consider drunkenness to be morally bad. Martin Luther was notable for his enjoyment of beer, so Lutherans have roughly the same attitude. Don’t forget Episcopalians. Luther was known to be a brewer. He has a famous quote on beer: “ Whoever drinks beer , he is quick to sleep; whoever sleeps long, does not sin; whoever does not sin, enters Heaven! Thus, let us drink beer!” We Lutherans keep on his love of beer to this day 😃. Also it appears that these days Beer & Hymns are becoming more a thing. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/29 "2020-08-20T19:22:09Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Don’t forget Episcopalians. Oh, I haven’t. In fact, I’m one! I was a bit surprised when I started at our church that we ended up going to a dinner thing with our pastor, and he, along with everyone else, had several glasses of wine. Definitely not the Baptist/conservative Methodist church I was brought up in/around (mostly around). Much more like the Catholics at my high school (a Jesuit one). ---
**Author:** ![Polarity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7cd45c/32.png) [@Polarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polarity)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2020, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/30 "2020-08-20T23:01:28Z")
Southern Baptist here and we have these beliefs in our church. The church is also a community group like any other, in addition to being a religious group. So not every plank in the platform is based on hard scripture. The way we look at it is that we are just a group of like minded people who have decided that alcohol is a bad thing for society and also the individual. So we have made the personal choice to abstain from it. We don’t feel it’s a commandment from God or something we need to force on others. Of course I can only speak for my personal experience in my church of a hundred or so people. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/31 "2020-08-21T00:33:51Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Wasn’t that because water wells were often contaminated but beer and other alcoholic beverages were safe to drink? In this context, it was more because stored fresh water doesn’t remain drinkable for very long, whereas beer does. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/32 "2020-08-21T00:34:55Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > The first story in the Bible is about the sin of giving into temptation. Every church based on those scriptures recognizes on a practical level that the single greatest ally of temptation is alcohol. If they were _really_ based on scripture, they would know that it’s the love of money. 😀 ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/33 "2020-08-21T02:05:12Z")
Old joke: Q - Why do you always invite two Baptists with you to go fishing? A - If you invite only 1 he’ll drink all your beer. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/34 "2020-08-21T02:17:28Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > There really isn’t much wiggle room in that one: I’m neither a translator nor a prohibitionist, but I can’t help but notice that you quoted a translation (English) of the text. Demonstrating that there is no wiggle room in a translation by people who’ve already necessarily taken a particular position doesn’t advance your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/35 "2020-08-21T02:38:47Z")
> [@bump](#): > > > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > > > Don’t forget Episcopalians. > > Oh, I haven’t. In fact, I’m one! I was a bit surprised when I started at our church that we ended up going to a dinner thing with our pastor, and he, along with everyone else, had several glasses of wine. > > Definitely not the Baptist/conservative Methodist church I was brought up in/around (mostly around). Much more like the Catholics at my high school (a Jesuit one). Or, as they say in my parents’ Episcopal church, wherever you find four Episcopalians, you’ll find a fifth. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/36 "2020-08-21T05:07:33Z")
# John 2:1-11 _King James Version_ _2 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:_ _2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage._ _3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine._ _4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come._ _5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it._ _6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece._ _7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim._ _8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it._ _9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,_ _10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now._ ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/37 "2020-08-21T07:52:34Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > > [@MEBuckner](#): > > > > There really isn’t much wiggle room in that one: > > I’m neither a translator nor a prohibitionist, but I can’t help but notice that you quoted a translation (English) of the text. Demonstrating that there is no wiggle room in a translation by people who’ve already necessarily taken a particular position doesn’t advance your argument. And what translation of [John 2:10](http://www.blbclassic.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#conc/10) would actually reflect the Greek text? It’s not that there’s no wiggle room in the _translation_, it’s that there’s no wiggle room in the meaning of the original text. In this passage of the Gospel of John, Jesus is portrayed as having turned water into οἶνος for a group of people who had already μεθύω (_methyō_). You can translate “μεθύω” as "have well drunk’ or “have had too much to drink” as you please, but I can’t see how any translation can say that word isn’t from [μέθη](http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3178&t=KJV), and [that word](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=me/qh&) has an inescapable meaning of “_strong_ drink” or “drunkenness” (that is, intoxication from consuming alcohol). Μεθύω just doesn’t _mean_ “drinking unfermented grape juice”. And then there’s the rest of the sentence. _Normally at the beginning of a party the host serves higher-quality unfermented grape juice; and then when everyone has drunk a lot of unfermented grape juice, the host begins serving them lower-quality unfermented grape juice_ [or perhaps _younger_ or _more-recent unfermented grape juice_] _but you have saved the best-quality unfermented grape juice until now._ How does that make any sense whatsoever? The idea that “the Bible” (a diverse collection of texts, written by different people over the course of many hundreds of years) invariably and in every passage teaches total abstinence from the consumption of alcoholic beverages is a silly and ahistorical idea that has been promoted by a segment of Protestant Christians beginning in a relatively recent historical era. However sympathetic we may be about the real social problems caused by the excessive consumption of alcoholic beverages in 18th and 19th century society (and especially the social problems surrounding [the consumption of distilled, high-proof liquors as opposed to fermented beverages like wine and beer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Street_and_Gin_Lane), which of course [no one who wrote any of the Biblical texts had any knowledge of](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquor#True_distillation)), there is simply no basis to ascribing to “the Bible” the ideas of mandatory total abstinence from all alcoholic beverages, nor their legal prohibition. ---
**Author:** ![Pitchmeister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pitchmeister/32/3459_2.png) [@Pitchmeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pitchmeister)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/38 "2020-08-21T11:45:35Z")
Schooled… ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/39 "2020-08-21T14:46:38Z")
Some previous threads that may interest you: > [@The Devil's Grape Juice: A Tale Of Religion](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-devils-grape-juice-a-tale-of-religion/714494): > > aldiboronti’s thread about Shirley MacLaine and the Holocaust, over in the BBQ Pit, got me to thinking about the nature of belief… and how it can very much affect how you interact with your fellow humans. And it also brought to mind a reminiscence… Once upon a time, I made pizza with a Christian. I was raised Methodist, but it didn’t take too well. I could be considered a Christian, albeit not a very good one. I always kind of liked Ben Franklin’s “Deist” idea, myself. But in the course of my … > [@Jesus' Wine and Hrothgar's Mead](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-wine-and-hrothgars-mead/500763): > > A teetotaling Christian (trying to convince of the validity of his lifestyle) once told me that modern winemaking techniques are designed to make the wine more potent, alcohol-wise, than ancient wine, and that the wine that Jesus & Co. drank would have been basically indistinguishable from grape juice due to the very low alcohol content. I’m not buying it. Has anyone been able to make wine by replicating 1st-century (or earlier) Roman winemaking methods? How was it? What was the alcohol content… > [@Was the wine in the Bible, Non-alcoholic?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/was-the-wine-in-the-bible-non-alcoholic/358892): > > A Seven-day Adventist was telling me that the wine in the Bible is not the same wine today. Difference being that the biblical wine has no alcohol? I also hear some Christian denominations don’t use wine for communion? Is it true? Was alcoholic wine a relatively recent developement? > [@Is the wine in the bible really grape juice?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-wine-in-the-bible-really-grape-juice/56107): > > Someone I talked to claims this. I find it hard to believe, as wine was used in ancient times. I checked Scientific American, and got no answers. So I throw it to the teeming millions. Thanks! > [@Scriptural support for non-drinking?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scriptural-support-for-non-drinking/328307): > > I have noticed among many Christian Churches, specifically Baptists denominations, remaining abstinent from alcohol is encouraged, if not required, in fellowship. Is there scriptural basis for this? My recollection of Jesus’ first miracle (water into wine) seems to be a clear sign that the Big Guy finds nothing wrong with taking a drink now and again…how did this become such a widespread practice? ---
**Author:** ![thdudescar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thdudescar/32/4638_2.png) [@thdudescar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thdudescar)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549/40 "2020-08-21T17:35:14Z")
Baptists Delighted They Can Now Wear Masks At Liquor Store > **[Baptists Delighted They Can Now Wear Masks At Liquor Store](https://babylonbee.com/news/baptists-to-continue-wearing-full-face-masks-at-liquor-store)** > > U.S.—Baptist believers have reported they are "utterly delighted" to learn they can now wear full face masks at the liquor store, preventing anyone from recognizing them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-christians-and-alcohol-consumption/918549.md?page=3)