# Some "clarity" for the President re: interrogations and torture **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183 "2006-09-18T15:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2006, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/61 "2006-09-24T23:44:22Z")
1. We’re not at war. 2. Cite that anyone in Gitmo is al Qaeda? And by “cite” I mean proven in a court of law, not merely "suspected’ by the torturers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/62 "2006-09-25T00:05:23Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] 1. We’re not at war. [/quote] That’s a semantic debate. Al Qaeda has declared war on us. They want to kill us and we want to kill them. Call it whatever you like-- I cal it a war. > [@](#): > > 1. Cite that anyone in Gitmo is al Qaeda? And by “cite” I mean proven in a court of law, not merely "suspected’ by the torturers. First of all, I said “in custody”, not “in Gitmo”. But KSM is at Gitmo now (along with the other guys from the CIA "secret prisons), so there are al Qaeda operatives there. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/63 "2006-09-25T00:09:01Z")
Some are self-confessed terrorists, therefore the methods used to obtain those confessions were legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/64 "2006-09-25T00:12:24Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Some are self-confessed terrorists, therefore the methods used to obtain those confessions were legitimate. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure why your trying to obscure the issue, but if you’d like to convince us that Khalid Sheik Mohammed is not al Qaeda, I’m all ears (or eyes, as the case may be). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/65 "2006-09-25T00:26:26Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] That’s a semantic debate. Al Qaeda has declared war on us. They want to kill us and we want to kill them. Call it whatever you like-- I cal it a war. [/quote] Al Qaeda isn’t a country. There is no such thing as a war with an amorphous, ambiguously defined “terrorist” group and there is no proof that anyone in Gitmo or any of the secret CIA torture prisons is in aQ in any case. > [@](#): > > First of all, I said “in custody”, not “in Gitmo”. But KSM is at Gitmo now (along with the other guys from the CIA "secret prisons), so there are al Qaeda operatives there. The proof that any of those guys are aQ is what? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/66 "2006-09-25T00:32:21Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] That’s a semantic debate. Al Qaeda has declared war on us. They want to kill us and we want to kill them. Call it whatever you like-- I cal it a war. [/quote] :dubious: Well, it that case, wouldn’t they qualify as POWs ? If they are just criminals, they can’t be at war with us; you seem to be trying to have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/67 "2006-09-25T00:33:35Z")
You have certainly posed the question in terms most advantageous to your position. Can’t blame you for that, I suppose, but damn sure going to point it out. You don’t really expect me to contend that, so I will give the question all it deserves. Moving right along, the point remains: you presume to decide who can legitimately recieve “alternative interrogation techniques” based on the nature of the detainee. At the same time, you recognize that some of the detainees, as in Abu Ghraib, are not guilty of anything more than being the hapless _shlemiel_ to our brutal _shlmozzle_. I have it! We’ll simply make it illegal to torture the _innocent_ detainees! And if they’re self-incriminating statements under “alternative interrogation” are admissible, why, that will simplify things marvelously! Bet we find out they’re all guilty! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/68 "2006-09-25T00:40:01Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’m not sure why your trying to obscure the issue, but if you’d like to convince us that Khalid Sheik Mohammed is not al Qaeda, I’m all ears (or eyes, as the case may be). [/QUOTE] Wow, it almost sounds like you don’t know who has the burden of proof. Can you prove that Justin Timberlake is not _al Qaeda_? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/69 "2006-09-25T00:41:08Z")
By the way, even if one guy is aQ, how does that justify torturing all the people that aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/70 "2006-09-25T00:46:28Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] :dubious: Well, it that case, wouldn’t they qualify as POWs ? If they are just criminals, they can’t be at war with us; you seem to be trying to have it both ways. [/QUOTE] For crying out loud. Once more: > [@John Mace](#): > > Firstly, the GC protocals for POWs do not apply to those groups who do not adhere to the rules of war. Al Qeada is the poster child for such groups. Is it your contention that al Qaeda adheres to the rules of war? > [@DtC](#): > > Al Qaeda isn’t a country. There is no such thing as a war with an amorphous, ambiguously defined “terrorist” group… Thank you for proving my assertion that this is a semantic debate. But like I said, you may call it anything you want. > [@](#): > > …there is no proof that anyone in Gitmo or any of the secret CIA torture prisons is in aQ in any case. The Congressional 9/11 Commission concluded that he is an al Qaeda Operative and that he was the principle architect of the 9/11 hijackings. Now, of course he’s innocent unilt proven guilty, but that would be true of ObL as well. I’m comfortable saying he is al Qaeda. You cannot in the same sentence claim that there is no proof he is al Qaeda but that there is proof that the CIA tortured people. Unless, of course, you have two standards for proof: on standard for things that reinforce your politcal positions and another for things that don’t. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/71 "2006-09-25T00:48:10Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] By the way, even if one guy is aQ, how does that justify torturing all the people that aren’t? [/QUOTE] It doesn’t. Do you think I said somewhere that it did? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/72 "2006-09-25T00:52:39Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] …Can you prove that Justin Timberlake is not _al Qaeda_? [/QUOTE] They don’t allow homos in Al Queda. Osama is the only exception. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/73 "2006-09-25T01:00:34Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Wow, it almost sounds like you don’t know who has the burden of proof. [/QUOTE] Almost is right. I said “convince us” not “prove”. As I said earlier, the 9/11 Commission report concluded that he’s al Qaeda. If you want to call him an alleged al Qaeda, that’s fine. But I will expect you then to put “alleged” in front of every assertion you make from here on in. Now, would you like to discuss those “alleged” incidents of CIA torture? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/74 "2006-09-25T01:04:33Z")
Since when is the 9/11 commission a court of law? The administration had admitted it uses torture. There’s nothing “alleged” about it. So how do we determine who we are allowed to toryture and who we aren’t? Right now all we have is the tautology that because we captured them they’re combatants. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/75 "2006-09-25T01:15:39Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The administration had admitted it uses torture. There’s nothing “alleged” about it. [/quote] Cite? > [@](#): > > So how do we determine who we are allowed to toryture and who we aren’t? I don’t know. You’d have to ask someone who advocates the use of torture. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/76 "2006-09-25T01:50:10Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Cite? [/QUOTE] BTW, Diogenes, before you list Abu Graib as a cite, let’s keep in mind that we’re discussing the allegation you made about: > [@DtC](#): > > …the secret CIA torture prisons… So, please prove to us that there are CIA torture prisons. And you will, of course, have a court conviction as your proof, right? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/77 "2006-09-25T02:00:36Z")
> [@](#): > > …You cannot in the same sentence claim that there is no proof he is al Qaeda but that there is proof that the CIA tortured people. Unless, of course, you have two standards for proof: on standard for things that reinforce your politcal positions and another for things that don’t… That about half an argument, and half a slur. Of course, you can claim two independent things in a single sentence. It is up to you to prove their dependence, that if one is false the other must be inherently false. You haven’t even attempted to do so. You cannot then use that to buttess your implication that your rhetorical opponent is dishonest or biased, based entirely on that unsupportable assertion. Or, at least, you shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/78 "2006-09-25T02:17:10Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] That about half an argument, and half a slur. Of course, you can claim two independent things in a single sentence. It is up to you to prove their dependence, that if one is false the other must be inherently false. You haven’t even attempted to do so. You cannot then use that to buttess your implication that your rhetorical opponent is dishonest or biased, based entirely on that unsupportable assertion. Or, at least, you shouldn’t. [/QUOTE] Pffft. \*\*Diogenes \*\*is demanding a level of proof that he’d never adhere to himself. I called him on it, and I was right in doing so. If we want to argue semantics all day long, then we cannot prove anything except in abstract realms like math and logic. A conviction in court is, therefore, not proof. As I said, if you want to call KSM an “alleged al Qaeda operative”, that’s fine with me. But then the whole arguement about there being no proven al Qaeda operatives in Gitmo is simply a red herring. No one there has had a trial, so it makes no sense to talk about whether there are or are no al Qaeda operatives there. Of course, this is all a side issue from the key part of this debate-- captured “alleged” al Qaeda operatives are not POWs. Can we agree on that? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/79 "2006-09-25T02:24:08Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] So, please prove to us that there are CIA torture prisons. And you will, of course, have a court conviction as your proof, right? [/QUOTE] I really think most any juror would infer that there was something to hide if actions had to be moved out of the country and kept secret. And what is the most likely thing to have hidden, especially in view of the push for a post fact ratification of previously used methods? GW, having shown himself to me to be a tad untrustworthy, doesn’t convince me at all with his claim that all he wants is clarity. Call me a Bush hater, but I didn’t hate him at all in the beginning. I didn’t have a lot of faith in his competence based on his record. In fact I considered him in no way competent to be president of the US but hoped that he could somehow avoid really screwing up by having a relatively uneventful term. The dislike has resulted from his subseauent activities. In my opinion he is, in the supposed Texas saying, “All hat and no cattle.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2006, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183/80 "2006-09-25T02:34:30Z")
Frankly, **John** , I’m not at all sure you have established that _that_ is the key question at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-clarity-for-the-president-re-interrogations-and-torture/373183.md?page=5)