Some discussion on law and sociology

Disclaimers: I didn’t get my PhD before bailing on the process; there are some beverages I shall identify as Discipline of Sociology Kool-Aid which I did not drink; I had my own philosophical and theoretical agendas as a student and continue to do so now.

As Elizabeth Janeway expounds in Powers of the Weak, and as approached in a mildly different fashion by Marilyn French in Beyond Power, power itself is not a substance one can obtain or extract from those one subjugates. Hence the OP’s point (I think).

At the same time, Q.E.D.: societies clearly exist which would probably not match anyone’s notion of entirely consensual. (In fact, I would point to the most democratic and enlightened nations on the face of the earth and say “Damn few of the multitudes who live there were consulted on jack shit, and yet would be locked in a cage for being found, not always through particularly fair methods of inquiry, to have violated rules they didn’t consent to”. And it’s all downhill from there).

So on the one hand we have the thesis that power is invested in the hands of those who wield it by those over whom it is weilded; on the other hand, we have what we consider to be fairly concrete evidence that oppression nevertheless exists, ranging somewhere between “still not eradicated” and “omnipresently ubiquitous” depending on who you ask.

Although I am no marxist, a quick borrowing: “false consciousness”. The oppressed may be participating in their own oppression yet still not be responsibly blameworthy as if they were doing so fully cognizant of their participation and what it is that they participate in. And what the alternatives are, by the way.

And my own attitude: if, hypothetically speaking, the power really were possessed by the powerful and not in any way granted to them by the rest (“the consent of the governed”, with the implicit power to retract that consent), then we’ve defined out of existence the possibility of the oppressed doing anything about it.

I would also note at this time that if we define (explicitly or otherwise) power over other people as an unavoidably, intrinsically desirable situation to which all with any opportunity are inherently & necessarily drawn to compete, we’ve again defined out of existence the possibility of the oppressed doing anything about it. (You could call overturnings of the overseers “revolutions” but they’d only be rotations. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, etc).

Victim-blaming, someone says; but I say cool your jets and take a moment to rethink how you think about power. This is not about casting around for a culprit to blame, it’s the sociological physics of understanding how things work. When I say that the gravitational attraction between the earth and my body is a mutual arrangement between masses, the truth of that doesn’t detract from the everyday truth that I can fall and skin my knees. True physical, nonsociological coercion is where I wrap my stronger hands around your hands and physically force your hands to release their contents to me. Once I’m standing 6 feet away from you and using the understood threat of my ability to retaliate if you disobey in order to get you to do as I bid with your hands, it’s still coercion, but now it has a sociological dimension.

Change: I will again reiterate that I’m no marxist (see above ¶ about revolutions versus rotations — marxists are generally among those who do see power over others as “what it’s all about”); there are other ways of getting what you want from a social context with the consent of the other participants. People can empower each other communally and reciprocally, wherein lies the dream of democracy. I am sour enough to say the Representatively Elected Emperor that is our current western-states edition of democratic government is an emperor with no clothes, and far from what I consider a democracy, but I’m no cynic, quite the idealistic true-believer actually. Democracy is a good thing to aspire to. Whether it is attainable in some absolutely pure form in which no iota of coercion remains, it is nevertheless desirable in every increment of it that we can attain. The more democracy, the merrier.

And a people, with the vision of a more democratic way of interacting sufficiently clear in their mind, are inclined to cooperate and participate only in the most immediate face of retaliation, while lending very little of their enthusiasm and energies to coercion-bound social arrangments otherwise. They will instead communicate as much as possible with others who share such a vision, and work towards extending the gift of their own voluntary cooperation to those who ask and recompense their efforts rather than attempting to compel them with raw reward-and-punishment behavior modification. (Yes, reward as well as punishment is a common element of coercion. Yes, there’s a difference between motivating via reward and recompensating people in an environment of mutual cooperation and/or efforts towards a common goal).

It’s also (I should point out) not a binary choice between cooperating with an oppressor and participating in some hippy-dippy totally egalitarian flowerchild utopian consensus-only anarchy. A people with a vision of a more democratic way of interaction will cooperate with a less coercive despot who shows some disposition to listen and give back and do some works for the common good, when given the choice between cooperating with one such and cooperating with a more absolute tyrant whose modus operandi is strictly “do as I say or die writhing”. Therein lies the payoff to the power-seeking in granting some measure of power back to those from whom they seek to have power granted. Democracy takes root often enough when one of plural competitors seeking the throne obtains enough more “consent of the governed” by promising the governed more fairness, greater participation and consideration in public affairs, more rights, and more freedoms, to win out over the other competitors. It takes time, and it’s unfortunately reversible, but the one thing it has going for it is that although totalitarianism is more efficient for short-term organizational results, democracy outstrips it in efficiency for more complex, long-term cooperative tasks.

If you define a three-legged dog with a really long tail as having four legs, that does not make it so. Can you see why?

The fundamental principle of democracy is that it requires a bloodless form of regime selection and change, usually in the form of free competetive elections. Tyranies and dictatorships do not have that mechanism of regime change and therefore, by definition, are not democracies.

Simplistic.

One could argue that The People’s Republic of Shoelaciana is a democracy. Voting not only gives the populace a chance to choose regime change bloodlessly, it’s downright mandatory. One could of course counterargue that Candidate X and Candidate Y are both members of the Oppressor Party so no regime change is gonna happen. But one could counter-counterargue that the Truly Democratic State of Votistan isn’t any different: nominally the Tyrant Party and the Plutocrat Party are different parties but informally they are run by the same people so again it’s the same regime.

On what grounds is Votistan a democracy but Shoelaciana is not? Or are neither of them democracies? Or are both of them? Be prepared to defend your answers. 45 minutes, take your time.

This, of course, is silly in the extreme. If you “ignore” the government, they simply come and arrest you and put you in jail. If you RESIST the power of the government, they may, and or may not, kill you. See Ed Brown for details. But it is unlikely, unless you push the issue.

You equate passivity with choice. To some extent, you are correct. And we can’t have it both ways; for everyone who says that the people of, say, Russia were forced to submit, there is someone who says the people of Germany should have revolted (despite the fact that much the same sort of thing would have occured). But there is a difference between actively participating in a process, and passively accepting a process. It’s when people understand that they prefer the former to the latter that dictatorships tend to die.

No I disagree. A true democracy depends on information and truth. A true democratic government isn’t supposed to lie to people or use propaganda to shape public opinion. There can’t be a real democracy when people don’t have true and honest information to give consent.

It is a bit more than that:
The purportedly contradictory positions taken by both Mocha and by Ice Cream Joe are based on the same semantic game.
Both Mocha and Ice Cream Joe ended their first posts with the same rhetorical question–a question that is odd in its own right.
The names Mocha and Ice Cream Joe can have the identical meaning, mocha being a coffe-flavored ice cream and joe being a nickname for coffee.

Now, I have not accused you of being a single poster with separate usernames. I have only pointed out that such action is prohibited and I have recommended that if you have inadvertantly violated our rules, it would be a good idea to contact an administrator to resolve the matter. You are not obligated to take any action, but if we do discover that you are a single person with a sock-puppet, both usernames will be banned with no appeal.

[ /Moderating ]

Isn’t it obvious that Ice Cream Joe used that phrase based on mine?

Isn’t that what you just said? If I wanted to have a sock to start some controversy wouldn’t I make a better attempt at actually starting some?

WOW!

Yeah, you pretty much have, and on pretty lame evidence.

Well, Mocha, the accusation’s out there, and it’s not totally far-fetched, but if it’s not true it doesn’t matter. I’d rather discuss the original topic.

Is “the consent of the governed” truly universal, i.e. any government, no matter how violent towards its citizens, only stays in power because the people let it? If so, doesn’t this ignore the concept of force multiplication, i.e. if the government has exclusive control of firearms, tanks, prisons and military aircraft, they have the power to maintain control over a much larger population, because a rifle gives one man the ability to kill other men at a distance, at no risk to himself. If there were no machines to give these kinds of advantages, then I guess the population could ignore a government they didn’t like, not even bothering to alter or abolish it. Of course, said population is likely to get overrun by neighbors who have such machines.

There’s a passage in 1984 of some relevance, in which Winston Smith reflects that the Proles, if they wanted, could toss out the Party with ease. Similarly, an undercover cop character in The Taking of Pelham One Two Three has a fantasy in which all 18 hostages rise as one, responding to telepathic coordination, and overwhelm the four machine-gun-toting hostage-takers. Sure, the governed can toss the bums out at will, but unless they have a means of communicating and organizing that is not under the scrutiny of the government, and unless they decide, hive-like, that they’re okay with having their first few waves get mowed down, how do they proceed, exactly?

Are you claiming they’re lazy, or something?

No, I have not. You have now used two separate discussions in one thread to cast doubt on your ability to display comprehension in a rational discussion.

I am aware that there are multiple possibilities to explain the first few posts in this thread. I am not claiming that you are guilty of any bad actions. If you want to discuss this further, take it to the Pit rather than hijacking your own thread.

From the context, it seems to me that the name “Ice Cream Joe” was devised to mock Mocha; probably by a lurker.

I believe that is not strong evidence they are the same person.

How do you see this as silly? It is only silly if you cannot fathom a liberty, a point of principal, a dearly held belief, being truncated by the government. Sure, maybe its silly I chose pot smoking. But what do you hold dear? What if the government suddenly prohibited it? You ignore the government at risk of punishment. You ignore the punishment - then what? Deconstruct the power of ALL government and you find the risk of death underlying it all. There is no exception and I would love to hear of one if anyone thinks there is.

I wholeheartedly agree. But it still remains that passive acceptance, or even passive resistance with a breaking point, is a form of acknowledging the power of a government. And this is the core of the whole matter - without the majority acknowledging and submitting to that power, there can be no power and no governance.

The problem with this concept is that you only see a 1 to 1 relationship. Take a man with a rifle in a situation where he never knows when a guerrilla tactic will take his life, and I will show you rapidly melting resolve. But I take your point. Very valid and great point. I never gave voice to motives behind the consent of the governed and I readily admit that when all force multipliers are in the hands of the government, it makes it that much harder for a majority to reach a consensus that the government must go. It is even harder when the government controls lines of communication, media distribution, and has unfettered access to the private affairs of its people. It also is much harder the closer the majority is to a simple majority. Fear and the human nature of self-preservation are aggravating factors also. But it remains a truth that the consent of the governed is an unshakable principal of government. I do not claim the disgruntled governed are lazy, or stupid, or anything else. What I claim is that there are always mitigating factors that create an atmosphere where the majority consent. If they do not, revolution is inevitable.

When there is a violent dictator that holds the reigns of power for a long period, many times the media from outside the dictatorship plays up self/other concepts so that outsiders view the situation with disdain and therefore international feeling is that the “people of the state” over which the despoit reigns want to throw off the regime, when in reality there might be stability or cultural ties that the “people” favor in ways outsiders cannot understand. Therefore they put up with a regime that outsiders feel (and which might actually) threaten them.

Another point that has been touched on but I want to bring up explicitly - consenting majorities can be created through fear, murder, and intimidation. Likewise they can be created by rational thought, pity, empathy, and education. Every society has its break point both for and against governments. Are some governments better than others? Absolutely. Is any government better than complete anarchy? Absolutely. So the closer things range toward anarchy in a revolution and the more the very fabric of the society are threatened, the more people might reach out to a less than ideal government in order to preserve themselves from the chaos of pure anarchy. Also, the more the mores of a society are breached by the would be government, the less likely they are to have any popular support at all. One man can never be an army unto himself. If he is way off base with his approach to the mores of the people, he will never rule.

Another point to consider: what if there is no majority? What if, for example, three or four nearly evenly matched groups vie for power? Would it be possible to for government if all 4 adamantly reject the rule of any of the other 3? The only possibility is a mutually acceptable governance that will hold the appeal of a majority.

I’m not sure if I’m allowed to say this or not, so sorry if I’ve broken any board rules, lol, but is there any chance you could stop putting ""s everywhere, it’s distracting.

Your point seems to be that there is no such thing as Democracy because the law is coercive. And of course the law is coercive as laws against anything, from serial murder to littering or pot-smoking need to be backed by force in order to be effective. But this simple truism does not support your contention that there’s no difference between democracy and dictastorship.

Surely you can see the difference between a society where laws, coercive as they may be, are chosen by elected representatives who have to show some concern to the people’s wishes, lest they be deposed at the ballot box and one where the laws are merely the whims of a tyrant. And surely you can see the difference between a society that can depose a leader merely by taking a day off work and one where they have to engage in violent revolution, often at the cost of their own lives. And surely you can see a difference between a society where certain rights are constituionally protected and one where they are not.

If you can’t I think you’re being willfully obtuse.

I predicted someone would bring this up.
And the punctuation rides free
Crashing over the walls of blue
The slashes cut deep
And the bananas will be stale

Well, to be fair, the liberal democracies only get to stay that way through eternal vigilance. If there were several years of government actions justified by fear or religious purity or racial harmony or whatever, and tolerated through mass indifference with the occasional malcontent beaten up by thugs, than I guess those constitutional protections would be pretty tenous and easily lost.

And I dunno about obtuse, but the OP’s position is more like applied topology. A solid object with a hole through it can be twisted, and enlarged as needed, therefore a donut is absolutely identical to radial tire. Anyone who points out that you can’t eat a radial tire obviously lacks sufficient political awakening.

Ok. I confess. I used democracy (little d) and set it up with a broad definition. I knew by doing this that some people would interpose their own feelings and ideals surrounding Democracy (capital D) and would reject my simple train of thought. I did it on purpose to spark some discussion. My sole point is that no government can exist without the consent of the governed. It\'s just not possible. When the governed cease to be governable, then Anarchy results and there is no more governance. If the people accept governance, regardless of how terrible that governance is or how coercive the means of establishing rule, then they have had a hand in determining how they are governed. The other option is rejection. There is no other way. Once established, ***ALL ***governments rule by power of death, no matter how beneficial the governance is to society at large.

But you’ve generalized so broadly that you’ve obscured reality. When the citizens of a liberal democracy decide their leader stinks, they can peacefully remove him or her at the ballot box. In extreme cases other tactics can be used, like impeachment or a parlimentary vote of no-confidence. In a dictatorship the people can only remove their leader through violent revolution, which is dangerous, bloody, and will fail without the backing of the military.

ETA: read the recent news out of Burma for an example of a government that rules without the consent of the governed.

I don’t see how feelings have to enter into it at all. You’re suggesting a criteria that makes no distinction, so what good is it?

For example:

All frackles are gribbles.
All danvies are gribbles.
All kintars are gribbles.

Therefore describing something as a “gribble” adds no useful information, because everything’s a gribble. You’d have to name something that’s not a gribble for gribble-dom to have any significance.

That only holds, though, if we presume “the governed” are of a single mind and will take unanimous action when it feels like it. Since actions are performed by individuals, not masses, a dictatorial government can maintain its power by cracking down on individuals. Larry Borgia was perfectly correct earlier when he likened your interpretation of “consent” to be the equivalent of the “consent” given by the victim of an armed robbery. If I’m consenting to anything I don’t get killed stopping, then “consent” means nothing and, worse, it doesn’t matter if I throw my life away, because it doesn’t count unless every single one of my fellow citizens acts the same way.

Then everything that happens to an society is the fault of the citizens who didn’t subject themselves to fatal risk in an effort to stop it, I guess. As for ALL governments ruling by the power of death… okay, sure, but we’re back to gribbles. It’s a meaningless statement which I guess is supposed to get people outraged or something. Arguably, even individuals live by the power of death. I could, if I wanted, kill my neighbor and take his stuff. He could do the same to me. We have, however, implicitly agreed to a social contract where neither of us does this, with the understanding that breaking this contract will trigger other citizens to follow a codified legal ritual to deal with the killer, through the use of police and courts and jails and such.

Chew on this: every human being feeds on death and survives only through causing death. Dramatic, no? It’s perfectly true, though. Since we can’t live off photosynthesis, we have to let plants do it, and then animals absorb this stored energy by eating the plants, and we absorb the energy by eating the animals and the plants. Mmmmmm, pass me another plate of death, and the mustard.

I don’t know where you live, but you’re literate and have access to an internet-connected computer. You’re already ahead the curve, globally speaking, and there are likely at least a billion people who would gladly change places with you. If all governments are functionally identical, would you have any objection to such an exchange? If so, why?

You completely fail to draw distinction between a society, or a people, as a mass rather than individuals. Masses and individuals act on completely different wavelengths. You are absolutely right that any single person is powerless against a power structure. That has nothing to do with my point.

Somewhere along the line enough people reach a critical mass and things start to happen outside of any one individual. This is true with any body of governed people. You make it seem like masses under cruel regimes are powerless to do anything about it. That is blatantly false. Look at any popular revolution throughout history. They always take a similar pattern of the status quo being thrown off, a period of anarchy, and then an establishment of government satisfactory (or at least non-objected to) by the masses. There is no “hive mind” or “unanimous action” involved. It’s simply a matter of societal dynamics vs. interpersonal dynamics at work. I can’t believe you don’t see the difference.

Also, not true at all. It’s particularly interesting that all frackles, danvies, and kintars are gribbles when it’s not obviously apparent and we are discussing the nature of a gribble.

Amazing overstatement.

It is dramatic. And poignant when thought about deeply enough. That’s kind of the point of what my OP. People just don’t think about these things and the ramifications of social contracts or social impact on the earth. That’s another post though if you want to discuss that. My discussion is focused on governance and society.

And you thereby give up some of your power of choice to the government in exchange for a measure of security. How far would you go? Would you give up your freedom to speak against the government if it meant you’d never be slandered? Would you give the government unfettered access to your personal effects if it meant you’d never ever be robbed? I don’t mean you, Bryan, in particular, but a generic you. Isn’t this the choice all peoples make when allowing governance? Isn’t there acceptance of everything about a governing body in exchange for some measure of security in all governments? If you see a distinction, draw it. Even the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot (arguably one of the most brutal governments ever) had people fighting for it’s return after Pol Pot was deposed. While Pol Pot and his croneys were executing nearly 2 million people to “structure their government” there was no movement to resist the government. The resistance movement trying to re-establish that government lasted something like 5 years. What does that show you? Again, look at Iraq today. We come in with arguably the greatest form of government ever invented by mankind, but that society will not embrace it and fights to re-establish a regime closer to what they knew - which was a dictatorship that committed mass torture and mass exterminations. Sure there are individuals in that region that want what we offer, but until the people, enmass, decide to allow a new government, it will never exist.

As a P.S. - I’ve got a horrible cold so if any of this post didn’t make sense, post why and I’ll revisit the point when I am not on this medicine. :o

I can’t believe you think jargon is equivalent to evidence.
Well, actually, I can.

Things get less dramatic when they are commonplace, no? Isn’t your premise that all governments rule by power of death and all governments rule with the consent of their citizens? That’s not really an insight, because all you’ve done is stretch the definitions of “power” and “consent” to cover all situations. It would be more interesting to delve into the differences between systems of government, but that requires making a firm determination of what is A and what is not-A (or gribble and not-gribble, as the case may be). If everything’s a gribble, then being a gribble just means something is something, but we knew a thing was something already, so gribbleness adds nothing to our something.

Heh.

It’s more of a continuum, I admit, but I can say with confidence that life for the individual in any of the liberal democracies (and I use that term in the common, widely accepted sense as describing the post-industrial capitalist constitutional nations with freely elected governments) is better than life in, say, Rwanda.

That the people fighting for Pol Pot’s return were the ones who had enjoyed full license under his power and wanted to do so again, and the lack of an organized resistance was due to the forced de-urbanizing of the population into the countryside where communication was near-impossible (at least compared to the convenience of newspapers, television, radios and telephones city-dwellers use to receive and disseminate information) and the casual brutality of the regime, not even following an organized plan the might be disrupted through organized resistance but relying on arbitrary life-and-death judgements by local despots, was sufficient to deter resistance?

What’s your point? War breed chaos? Many of the Sunni who are now fighting the Americans were the ones who enjoyed elevated social status in Saddam’s Iraq, and major opportunities to keep the country reasonably stable were missed by the poorly-organized Bush administration (I refer to “The Lost Year in Iraq”, a particularly fascinating episode of Frontline). Heck, the Americans themselves made their declaration in 1776, didn’t win at Yorktown until 1781 and didn’t get their constitution ratified until 1787. This stuff takes time.

Challenge yourself - come up with something positive and distinctive you can say about one form of government that can’t be said about another form. That’s where the big bucks are. Saying (in effect) that everything sucks is the purview of the embittered aging punk rocker still working the counter at Starbucks.