# Some dumb Bible question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318 "2018-05-16T23:58:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/21 "2018-05-18T10:36:33Z")
One thing which has changed a lot in relatively recent times (the last 2-3 centuries) is how we deal with sources in our scientific/research literature; this influences how we deal with sources in general. Our ideas about accuracy have changed a lot, and not just because of Swiss watches. Those of us who have any kind of scientific training want to know what part of what someone says is a hypothesis, what part is facts, what part is educated guess, and what comes out of somebody’s elbow. This doesn’t require a degree in the sciences, but it does require an understanding of the difference between hypothesis (not verified, but verifiable), fact (verified) and guess (if anybody comes up with a way to verify it, let us know). It used to be that most authors didn’t differentiate between those concepts, either much or at all. Aristotelian anatomy anybody? Dude guessed left, right and sideways, yet his guesses were treated as known, solid facts for centuries; one of the accusations against Miguel Servet was that he was daring question Aristoteles (there’s some 1800 years between both). Scholars cited their sources when those sources were themselves considered authoritative enough; things they got out of their left elbow were said as if, well, as if the writer had read them in Moses’ stone tablets. The Bible was written by people with that mindset; when reading it, it’s important to keep in mind that even when they are doing their best to be exact they will be fuzzy (the Book of Numbers being a possible exception but only until you remember how much goats move). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/22 "2018-05-18T10:46:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **septimus** : > > An earthly light at night, however bright, doesn’t illuminate the sky. Light doesn’t seem to reflect off of air. It absolutely does, much to the dismay of astronomers. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/23 "2018-05-18T11:05:01Z")
Obviously. I still wonder if it was obvious to the ancients. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/24 "2018-05-18T12:11:24Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > S > However, it’s only on the fourth day that God reportedly sets up the whole lighting system that separates night and day to begin with. Really? What, exactly, were you reading? > [@](#): > > 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. > > 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. **4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day**. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/25 "2018-05-18T12:28:06Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Augustine may not have imagined that millions upon millions of people would today be doing what he 1500 years earlier already warned against. Well he has his own probelms to deal with… > [@](#): > > If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the\*\* resurrection of the dead\*\*, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Bolding mine, this seems to imply that he thinks the resurrection of the dead is literally true. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/26 "2018-05-18T12:37:41Z")
This is largely a matter of Hebraic poetical convention. The ancient scriptural writers used parallelism instead of rhyme to create emphasis. So, first in the cosmology, the heavens are created, then the seas, then the land. And after that, the denizens of the heavens (stars, sun, moon) are created, then the creatures of the sea, then the creatures of the land. Man is created last. The important burden of the passage is that God created everything, and had a plan to do it. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/27 "2018-05-18T13:50:48Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Really? What, exactly, were you reading? I think the OP was saying that the **lighting system** , that is the Sun (and, to a lesser extent, the moon) wasn’t created until the 4th day, so where are these day and nights coming from? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/28 "2018-05-18T15:07:56Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Bolding mine, this seems to imply that he thinks the resurrection of the dead is literally true. Well, yes, he does. [That’s a standard Christian belief.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_the_dead) > [@Wikipedia](#): > > In the New Testament of the Christian Bible, the three common usages for this term pertain to (1) the Christ, rising from the dead; (2) the rising from the dead of all men, at the end of this present age and (3) the resurrection of certain ones in history, who were restored to life. Predominantly in Christian eschatology, the term is used to support the belief that the dead will be brought back to life in connection with end times. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/29 "2018-05-18T19:33:56Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I think the OP was saying that the **lighting system** , that is the Sun (and, to a lesser extent, the moon) wasn’t created until the 4th day, so where are these day and nights coming from? A simple reading of the text is that in the first day God separated the “light” (that had just been created) from the “darkness”, that is, the lighting system where there are “days” and “nights” is mentioned in the first day. The fourth day introduces heavenly bodies to distinguish day from night and enable people to tell time, also to illuminate the earth (which, you will note, was already flourishing with abundant plant life by then). In short, the “lighting system” (but _not_ the Sun and Moon!) is mentioned right at the beginning, in the third sentence, as **cmkeller** explains. Beyond that, including the validity of identifying a strict chronological order here, refer to the Algerian theologian mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/30 "2018-05-18T19:44:34Z")
Drawing from my faulty memory of Moody Bible Institute’s Dr. Harry Rimmer, he argues that light could be created, but not yet “released” where it could be seen. He claims that the wording in the later verses suggests a release; the earlier suggests a creation. It’s a tortuous logic, to be sure, but it permits Rimmer to claim that the Bible is scientifically accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/31 "2018-05-18T19:44:55Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Well, yes, he does. [That’s a standard Christian belief.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_the_dead) I know, but it is no less ridiculous or scientifically nonsensical than a worldwide flood, six-day creation or walking on water. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/32 "2018-05-18T20:23:51Z")
This resurrection stuff will only happen during the “end times”, right? So (excepting, of course, the entire theological implication) it is irrelevant to the physical world until such time; and after the “end”, well, science will be somewhat less important than it is now. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/33 "2018-05-18T22:15:30Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I grew up being taught the first interpretation mentioned by nelliebly, which does seem to be the most straightforward reading of the text. The light just existed without the need for the heavenly bodies. Sometimes I heard that God himself was a supernatural source of light, making the metaphor literal. > > I did hear the other variation as well on Evangelical/Pentecostal TV. It’s part of the “gap” theory, which posits a huge time gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. It argues that the first clause should be more accurately translated “Now the Earth _became_ without form”, and uses this to try and reconcile the older Earth with the younger account in Genesis. (Apparently the word for “was” can also be translated as “came to be.”) Wikipedia has an article on the belief, called “[gap creationism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_creationism).” Ah, I wondered how that one might be twisted to fit a literalistic interpretation. The fact that there are two completely different and disagreeing creation stories right at the beginning of the Bible is a tough way for a literalist to start the day. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/34 "2018-05-18T22:18:18Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Really? What, exactly, were you reading? I know that, but as has already been adressed ITT, “morning” and “evening” only make sense from an Earth-centric perspective that includes at least the Sun (the Moon is optional). It’s not like every star out there goes off when it’s time to hit the pillow. I can grok **cmkeller** ’s assertion that those words are meant to provide the target audience with some form of relatable “some time passed” metaphor (it might even be true !) ; but the metaphor itself makes no coherent cosmological sense. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/35 "2018-05-18T22:29:30Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I know that, but as has already been adressed ITT, “morning” and “evening” only make sense from an Earth-centric perspective that includes at least the Sun (the Moon is optional). It’s not like every star out there goes off when it’s time to hit the pillow. Well, when you put it _that_ way, why couldn’t time be being tracked according to the rotational cycles of some other planet? Something tidily extra-universal, where God keeps his bungalow? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/36 "2018-05-18T22:55:44Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Ah, I wondered how that one might be twisted to fit a literalistic interpretation. The fact that there are two completely different and disagreeing creation stories right at the beginning of the Bible is a tough way for a literalist to start the day. 🙂 Not if your literalist is allowed to lapse into interpretist when it suits him. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/37 "2018-05-18T23:02:48Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Many of the people Augustine talked about - many of whom don’t even understand what kind of book they’re looking at when they read the Bible, let alone what it’s saying - are now respected and popular pastors and religious teachers, spreading stupidity far and wide. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Well he has his own probelms to deal with… > > Bolding mine, this seems to imply that he thinks the resurrection of the dead is literally true. I just find it … interesting? odd? that things have polarized so much since he wrote that. I (an atheist) feel like I have (in terms of religion) more in common with Augustine than with some of my fundamentalist neighbours. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/38 "2018-05-19T01:37:37Z")
> [@Batano](#): > > Either belive the Bible literally, accept it as metaphor, or treat it as fiction. > [@Willcross](#): > > What other option would there be? The other option would be trying to find a scientific explanation for a Biblical miracle. This is always a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/39 "2018-05-19T01:41:32Z")
In the beginning, God caused the light to shine. Later, he made the sun and moon so that light would shine from them. The original light was not star dependent, it was just God’s power… ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318/40 "2018-05-19T02:07:25Z")
I think the question is the same type of question I’ve been asked so many times at movies - “Why is he doing that?” - where the only sane answers are “Shut up, you’re ruining the show” or “You’re not supposed to know yet, keep watching”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-dumb-bible-question/814318.md?page=3)