Some Ethanol Production Questions.

[Kent_Clark]

@ralph124c

Ethanol is not a good fuel in cold regions-I imagine driving a E85 car in a Minnesota winter would be a challenge

Actually, Minnesota has more E85 fueling stations than any other state. Problems with ethanol don’t come with cold, they come with moisture. It’s more likely that your BIL’s Fiat was having trouble with condensation on those cold mornings.

The big problem with cellulosic ethanol is that you have to break all that cellulose down to get to the carbohydrates. By contrast, sugar cane is very easy to break down. Corn is pretty easy to break down. With cellulosic fibers, you need to get the proper enzymes, provide the proper environment, and give the whole mixture time break down. One ethanol expert told me it took about 3 days to “distill” ethanol from corn, vs. about 30 days to distill it from cellulosic sources. I can’t find a reliable cite to back him up, but the two processes definitely aren’t identical.

[yabob]

There are some different variants for how to make cellulosic ethanol:

Cellulosic ethanol | Production methods

Not everybody is using hydrolosis and enzymatic methods. Some companies are using the older gasification process in some form. Wiki on the current state of commercialization:

Cellulosic ethanol

An old estimate as to where we are going to get the feedstocks for 95 billion gal/yr of ethanol in the US:

http://www.ecoworld.com/articles/images/ethanol_feedstocks.jpg

Don’t take as particularly accurate. I clipped that from a 2008 article - I think it originally came from venture capitalist Vinod Khosla, circa 2006 or so. At that point, Khosla was very big on cellulosic ethanol.

I think the “dedicated land use” includes my earlier suggestion of utilizing the CRP lands.

[adhay]

@kunilou

@ralph124c

Ethanol is not a good fuel in cold regions-I imagine driving a E85 car in a Minnesota winter would be a challenge

…

The big problem with cellulosic ethanol is that you have to break all that cellulose down to get to the carbohydrates. By contrast, sugar cane is very easy to break down. Corn is pretty easy to break down. With cellulosic fibers, you need to get the proper enzymes, provide the proper environment, and give the whole mixture time break down. One ethanol expert told me it took about 3 days to “distill” ethanol from corn, vs. about 30 days to distill it from cellulosic sources. I can’t find a reliable cite to back him up, but the two processes definitely aren’t identical.

I would suggest that sugar rich crops require mucho expensively cultivated acreage. OTOH, cellulose is dirt cheap.

[Kent_Clark]

@adhay

I would suggest that sugar rich crops require mucho expensively cultivated acreage. OTOH, cellulose is dirt cheap.

No argument, but remember, the cost of the source material is only one part of the equation. Bottom line is. I can’t find a single cellulosic ethanol facility in the US that’s commercially viable (that is, including all the tax breaks, subsidies and incentives that both corn-based and cellulosic operations receive). Since the cost of the corn is included in the production cost for corn-based ethanol, and since the corn-based operations are at least marginally viable (again, including all the subsidies), I have to conclude the stock cost isn’t the barrier for cellulosic.

[Fear_Itself]

@ralph124c

Why don’t we go to an all-hydrogen economy? WE can set up big nuclear electric plants in remote locations, and use the electricity to split H2O-release the O2 and compress the hydrogen.

Because cracking water with electricity to make hydrogen cannot compete economically with the current commercial process, reforming natural gas with steam (PDF). Until electricity is significantly cheaper than can be achieved with nuclear fission, hydrogen will remain a fossil fuel.

[adhay]

@kunilou

@adhay

I would suggest that sugar rich crops require mucho expensively cultivated acreage. OTOH, cellulose is dirt cheap.

No argument, but remember, the cost of the source material is only one part of the equation. Bottom line is. I can’t find a single cellulosic ethanol facility in the US that’s commercially viable (that is, including all the tax breaks, subsidies and incentives that both corn-based and cellulosic operations receive). Since the cost of the corn is included in the production cost for corn-based ethanol, and since the corn-based operations are at least marginally viable (again, including all the subsidies), I have to conclude the stock cost isn’t the barrier for cellulosic.

I postulate a time soon coming when folks will live communally because they must. The planet cannot afford a car in every garage and a chicken in every pot for 7 billion people.

It’s time to think about paring down to a few locally powered bio-diesel and alcohol powered haulers. Assuming robust agriculture, traction, transport and transportation is all you need.