# Some fair questions for Mitt Romney about Mormonism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419 "2010-04-17T00:45:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/101 "2010-04-19T15:15:09Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Here’s another one, Revelation 22:18 > _I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book_ > > I always took that to mean that the Bible is completed and can’t be amended any longer. So… how can Mormons justify the extraneous text that is the Book of Mormon? :dubious: > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “This book” only refers to the book of Revelation itself – the only book the author was aware he was writing. He didn’t know he was writing anything that would be incorporated into a canonized “Bible.” He just didn’t want anybody to alter his own book. Right. And wasn’t the same kind of warning in an “Old Testament” (Hebrew Scriptures) book? (I’m not finding it just now.) It’s truly amazing how persistent people are in making a statement about Revelation, AKA \*The Apocalypse \*a statement about the Christian Bible as a whole. If they were correct about such a statement, early Christians would have been “amending” the Bible by adding books. Also, there is the assumption that Revelation was written last, because it appears last. (Perhaps also because it goes quickly toward the _Last Things_.) This is one pretty big assumption, and I wonder if some people believe that the Bible, or at least the “New Testament” was written sequentially, perhaps all in the same document. Finally, some skeptics have pointed out that the very warning means that, previous to its writing, sacred books were **messed** with. This is serious reason to doubt the original content is essentially left intact. But this will simply be dismissed by true believers. _ **- Truly Og** _ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/102 "2010-04-19T15:19:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “This book” only refers to the book of Revelation itself – the only book the author was aware he was writing. He didn’t know he was writing anything that would be incorporated into a canonized “Bible.” He just didn’t want anybody to alter his own book. Let’s not forget that particular book wasn’t the last one written in the accepted canon anyway. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/103 "2010-04-19T16:03:48Z")
> [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > :dubious: > > Right. And wasn’t the same kind of warning in an “Old Testament” (Hebrew Scriptures) book? (I’m not finding it just now.) > … > > _ **- Truly Og** _ It’s in Deuteronomy. I wonder if that passage was a reason the Sadducees only accepted the Torah as Divinely inspired. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/104 "2010-04-19T18:34:34Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > It’s in Deuteronomy. I wonder if that passage was a reason the Sadducees only accepted the Torah as Divinely inspired. Thank you. I was going to say towards the end of Deuteronomy but I coudn’t find it, so I pre-edited what I said to the O.T. I was going to also say that the Samaritans rejected everything past the Torah, and that there are some of them extant today.. But I had never checked either out after reading it. But it’s really true [about both](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Religious_beliefs). _ **- Og** _ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/105 "2010-04-19T19:15:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Scientology isn’t really a religion, it’s a racket. Raelians I wouldn’t care about. Always seemed to me that a religion was anything anyone was willing to call a religion, so all parts were equally arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/106 "2010-04-19T20:36:41Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Indeed, there’s strong evidence that the early copies of the Bible were redacted to provided support for the Trinitarians. As in, someone went in and scribbled over the existing copy to make it look as if there was support, altering words. Huh? Are you talking about the [Johannine Comma](http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.htmlhttp://)? As already discussed, that was added in the margin; nothing was removed. Other than that half sentence, there’s no evidence whatever to support your claim. > [@Monty](#): > > I’ve a question for both ITR champion and Curtis LeMay: What religious groups do you consider to be acceptable faiths for presidential candidates to hold? Maybe you can even inform us of the religious affiliations of the candidates you last voted for in any election. I’m pretty certain I can come up with some “fair” questions for each and every one of those groups. I have never categorized the members of any faith as unacceptable or acceptable; I take each candidate and evaluate them by what they present. But the unique aspects of Mormonism are why I think it’s particularly important that Romney be asked these questions. Mormons–or at least the hardcore ones–believe that their leadership receives from God a process of “continuing revelation”. Hence we have no idea what President Romney’s Church would command him to believe at various times in his presidency if he were elected. If he did do such things as believing blacks to be morally inferior because of the Church’s say-so, what guarantee do we have that he won’t be called upon to believe that or other morally atrocious things in the future? So I say that we need to ask there questions in order to be very clear about how he’s going to make political decisions. > [@John Mace](#): > > Would the OP ask a Catholic why he associates with a church that still to this day considers women inferior-- ie, incapable of being priests? Now, I know that “priest” has a different meaning in Catholicism and Mormonism, but it’s still an important discriminating action. The Catholic Church does not consider women to be inferior. Here’s [the Catechism](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm) if you’d like to check. The Catholic Church believes that the priesthood is a job better held by men than women, a stance having nothing in common with what the LDS Church promoted until recently about blacks. They believed that blacks were inferior and they said so point blank. (And, as I mentioned, they have not retracted those statements.) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/107 "2010-04-19T20:58:50Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The Catholic Church does not consider women to be inferior. Here’s [the Catechism](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm) if you’d like to check. The Catholic Church believes that the priesthood is a job better held by men than women, a stance having nothing in common with what the LDS Church promoted until recently about blacks. They believed that blacks were inferior and they said so point blank. (And, as I mentioned, they have not retracted those statements.) I don’t see how “The Catholic Church believes that the priesthood is a job better held by men than women” is not a statement that cannot be rephrased as “The Catholic Church believes that women are inferior in the role of priests to men” and so (less specifically, but still accurately) “The Catholic Church believes that women are inferior”. Perhaps it is in the specifics that the difference lies. What particular qualities does the Catholic Church believe that women as a whole lack? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/108 "2010-04-19T22:57:18Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > I oppose Romney a lot more for his total reversals on policy, which IMHO left him on the wrong side of those issues, than for the wackiness and secretiveness of Mormonism. Which ones, specifically? > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Actually former President Bush is a liberal Methodist. Apparently people nowadays equate social conservative with religious fundamentalist. Bush is a fundamentalist in the sense that he took advice on how to run the country from the Almighty, and attempted to (or at least promised to) codify his personal theology into law. The fact that he may or may not attend a relatively liberal church is irrelevant. If I go to Unitarian services but demand that the Ten Commandments be publicly displayed in state-owned buildings, I’m a fundamentalist. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I suppose they could be called “Christians” in the sense they call themselves such and derive their theology from the Bible. However they’re in great error theologically speaking about as much as the Muslims which in a sense is a branch of Christianity. You’re quite right - they’re in great error, theologically speaking, in that they accept any theology as more than fiction. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Mitt Romney has been getting mentioned quite a bit of late, especially when the topic is the Republican nomination in 2012. This seems to have less to do with anything he’s accomplished than with the embarrassing behavior of other Republican contenders who won’t be named here. While the chattering classes focus mainly on his shifting stances on health care and such, his lifelong adherence to Mormonism seems to have vanished from the stage. I don’t think it should have. I have much less of a problem with Romney’s LDS membership than I do with Romney (and other Republican candidates) accepting public endorsements far-right crazies, be they LDS or “mainstream” Christians. > [@BrightNShiny](#): > > As for the ceremonies, since I don’t know anything about them, I’ll refrain from comment. But I will note that I have people who self-identify as Christians routinely tell me that I’m in league with the Devil because I’m a Hindu or because I’m gay. Not every day or anything, but it’s routine enough that I’m not shocked by it anymore. You’re the first openly gay Hindu I’ve ever personally heard of. I was starting to worry there was something wrong with my people, hijras aside. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is called the [Johannine Comma](http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html). It’s not really in the Bible. It was inserted into a Latin text (probably from an accidental incorporation of a marginal note by a copyist) in the middle ages. From there it got back-translated into a few Greek manuscript copies, and eventually into English in the KJV, but it’s not original to the text and does not exist in any of the earliest Greek manuscripts, or even most of the manuscripts contemporaneous with the Vulgate. It is no longer even included in more modern and accurate translations (made from earlier and more accurate Greek manuscripts). Are there _any_ commas in the Greek manuscripts? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/109 "2010-04-19T23:35:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Bush is a fundamentalist in the sense that he took advice on how to run the country from the Almighty, and attempted to (or at least promised to) codify his personal theology into law. > > The fact that he may or may not attend a relatively liberal church is irrelevant. If I go to Unitarian services but demand that the Ten Commandments be publicly displayed in state-owned buildings, I’m a fundamentalist. I pine for the days when words had meanings. And for the fjords. ETA: comma comma down doobie doo down down… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/110 "2010-04-19T23:38:04Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I pine for the days when words had meanings. > > And for the fjords. I have contacted Slartifarbast and he has agreed to help you with the latter. My treat. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/111 "2010-04-19T23:42:36Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I have contacted Slartifarbast and he has agreed to help you with the latter. My treat. Great, thanks! I had no idea you were a mouse… Pedantic ETA: Slartibartfast ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/112 "2010-04-20T00:09:34Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > What particular qualities does the Catholic Church believe that women as a whole lack? Sex appeal. _ba-doom-chuck_ ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/113 "2010-04-20T00:23:48Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I have never categorized the members of any faith as unacceptable or acceptable; I take each candidate and evaluate them by what they present. I think that your OP in this very thread disproves that statement. > [@](#): > > But the unique aspects of Mormonism are why I think it’s particularly important that Romney be asked these questions. Mormons–or at least the hardcore ones–believe that their leadership receives from God a process of “continuing revelation”. Hence we have no idea what President Romney’s Church would command him to believe at various times in his presidency if he were elected. Besides this being the same (or similar) canard used to attack JFK, do you happen to have any evidence other than your own prejudices that proves that Romney’s religious beliefs have prevented him from performing his elected office? > [@](#): > > If he did do such things as believing blacks to be morally inferior because of the Church’s say-so, what guarantee do we have that he won’t be called upon to believe that or other morally atrocious things in the future? So I say that we need to ask there questions in order to be very clear about how he’s going to make political decisions. Silly of me to go off of the man’s track record to see how he’s performed in office. > [@](#): > > The Catholic Church does not consider women to be inferior. Here’s [the Catechism](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm) if you’d like to check. The Catholic Church believes that the priesthood is a job better held by men than women, a stance having nothing in common with what the LDS Church promoted until recently about blacks. They believed that blacks were inferior and they said so point blank. (And, as I mentioned, they have not retracted those statements.) The LDS church believed that Blacks were “cursed as to the Priesthood.” As they believe in continuing revelation, their leader opened up priesthood to all “worthy male members.” So, side note here, what about the Jews? Last I heard only one particuclar family could actually be priests in that religion! Rabbis aren’t priests, by the way, and the members of certain congregations (I think Orthodox, but I don’t really remember) get blessed once a year by that family’s males. To the poster who said the concept of priesthood is different in Roman Catholicism and Mormonism: I’m curious. Why do you say the concept is different? I’d say the procedures of selection and qualification are different but that the concept is the same: authority to act on behalf of God for conducting ordinances of the church. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/114 "2010-04-20T00:27:55Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > To the poster who said the concept of priesthood is different in Roman Catholicism and Mormonism: I’m curious. Why do you say the concept is different? I’d say the procedures of selection and qualification are different but that the concept is the same: authority to act on behalf of God for conducting ordinances of the church. AIUI, all males in good standing are automatically elevated to the Aaronic priesthood at the age of 12, so that’s a bit different from the Catholic concept. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/115 "2010-04-20T00:45:51Z")
Well, the concept as in the purpose of the priesthood isn’t different. As I said, that’s an issue of difference in qualification and selection. And, as you just mentioned, the individual must be in good standing, as in qualified for the office. Just being 12 years old doesn’t cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/116 "2010-04-20T01:17:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Always seemed to me that a religion was anything anyone was willing to call a religion, so all parts were equally arbitrary. Not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/117 "2010-04-20T01:45:15Z")
Oh, okay, that proves it. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/118 "2010-04-20T02:43:22Z")
So some say any member of any faith should not be disqualified from consideration for public office. That is absurd. Many would easily and quickly reject devil worshipers. Others would not vote for Muslims. Still others would object to Scientology followers. It is not a question of whether a person should be thought of as less logical and politically unpalatable if they follow a strange religion. The question is whether Mormons fall into that group. For me they do. Mormonism was founded by a weird conman /shyster. He died about 1850, so many stories of his life are available. As he walked about treasure hunting with “seeker stones” in his hat , he was well known. His life us too recent for history to erase the warts of his weirdness and polish him into a fine example of a religious leader. Then the anti black part can not be ignored. You can not hand wave away the polygamy. Nor can you justify the suppression of women. Forget about the magic underwear. That is a harmless oddity. Amusing to outsiders. But it is something a follower should have reacted with" what are you kidding me" when they were taught about it. Mormons have some baggage that makes me question their grasp of reality . It is strange. I don’t give a lot of thought to its adherents until they run for political office. Then it matters. It matters a lot. It is not just another religion. I see any person who says they are Mormons as a bit flawed. They are ignoring too much .They are accepting some basic wrongs . The suppression of women can not be allowed. The teaching of blacks as inferior can not be accepted. And many of the teachings are too goofy not to DQ a follower from getting a voters consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/119 "2010-04-20T03:28:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So some say any member of any faith should not be disqualified from consideration for public office. That is absurd. Many would easily and quickly reject devil worshipers. Others would not vote for Muslims. Still others would object to Scientology followers. It is not a question of whether a person should be thought of as less logical and politically unpalatable if they follow a strange religion. The question is whether Mormons fall into that group. For me they do. Mormonism was founded by a weird conman /shyster. He died about 1850, so many stories of his life are available. As he walked about treasure hunting with “seeker stones” in his hat , he was well known. His life us too recent for history to erase the warts of his weirdness and polish him into a fine example of a religious leader. So Mormons will be qualified to hold office in a thousand years? That’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/120 "2010-04-20T03:53:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Geographically, maybe. But intellectually, our government and history is much more closely tied into that of Europe during the time period addressed (first few centuries BC). I meant to point out sooner that (so I’m told) elements of our democracy are drawn from the Iroquois system. Is that true? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419.md?page=7)