# Some fair questions for Mitt Romney about Mormonism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419 "2010-04-17T00:45:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/161 "2010-04-21T01:56:27Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No, they seem to be against Judaism, Islam, the Vedic religions, etc. No more so than Christianity. They don’t advocate any kind of violence or intereference with free practice. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/162 "2010-04-21T01:59:53Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Only half true. LaVeyan Satanists are believers in Satan who’ve combined Randian philosophy with occultic mumbo-jumbo. > > Look, answer me squarely: people who believe in Satan are members of a religion. True or False? LaVeyan Satanists do not believe in Satan or any other supernatural entities. **Curtis** is right about them to that extent. They are nontheistic. They don’t worship Satan (or anything else). They do believe in “magic,” but not in any kind of dark lord. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/163 "2010-04-21T02:09:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > LaVeyan Satanists do not believe in Satan or any other supernatural entities. **Curtis** is right about them to that extent. They are nontheistic. They don’t worship Satan (or anything else). They do believe in “magic,” but not in any kind of dark lord. Since I agree that you are more knowledgeable on religion than I am, I’d appreciate a cite or two on this. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/164 "2010-04-21T02:12:56Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Since I agree that you are more knowledgeable on religion than I am, I’d appreciate a cite or two on this. [Cite](http://altreligion.about.com/od/alternativereligionsaz/a/satanism.htm) & quote: > [@](#): > > LaVeyan Satanism is one of several distinct religions identifying itself as Satanic. Followers are atheists who stress dependence on the self rather than reliance on any outside power. It encourages individualism, hedonism, materialism, ego, personal initiative, self-worth and self-determinism. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/165 "2010-04-21T02:21:37Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > [Cite](http://altreligion.about.com/od/alternativereligionsaz/a/satanism.htm) & quote: OK, news to me, and I appreciate the cite. LeVay’s group was formed in the 1960s; were there no Satanist religions prior to that group’s formation? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/166 "2010-04-21T02:37:11Z")
That seems to be a more complex question and, no doubt, belongs in a thread all its own. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/167 "2010-04-21T02:47:06Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That seems to be a more complex question and, no doubt, belongs in a thread all its own. I’m not sure why. **Curtis** ’ original comment referred to Satanists, and only later did he refine it to LaVeyist Satanists. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/168 "2010-04-21T03:07:16Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I served with two Satanists aboard my first ship in the Navy. That would make a great t-shirt. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/169 "2010-04-21T03:21:13Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I’m not sure why. **Curtis** ’ original comment referred to Satanists, and only later did he refine it to LaVeyist Satanists. Unlike Monty, I doubt he’s met any of them, either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/170 "2010-04-21T03:26:21Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > OK, news to me, and I appreciate the cite. LeVay’s group was formed in the 1960s; were there no Satanist religions prior to that group’s formation? [Yes, no; depending on definition:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism#Before_modern_Satanism) > [@](#): > > **Before modern Satanism** > > Historically, primarily in Christian European civilization over the centuries, but also in Muslim countries (for example, the Yezidis), some people or groups have been specifically described as worshipping Satan or the Devil, or of being devoted to the work of Satan. The widespread preponderance of these groups in European cultures is in part connected with the importance and meaning of Satan within Christianity. When viewing the historical development of the phenomenon of Satanism in the list below, it becomes evident that, while the earlier Christian examples may reflect the goals of the Catholic Church to overcome pagans and heretics (or to dispose of opponents, as was the case with Urbain Grandier), the later examples (at least from the time of de Sade onwards) clearly express an open hatred, to the point of sacrilege and blasphemy in some cases, towards Christianity, and the Roman Catholic Church in particular. > > Some of the main personalities and groups that have stood out over the centuries, are: > > **In the Middle East** > > The Yezidis, a minority religion of the Middle East who worship the Melek Taus, are often referred to as Satan worshippers by some sectors of the dominant Muslim religion.[20] > > **In Christian cultures** > > ``` > * Pagans celebrating Pan, Athena, Moloch, Odin, Perkunas or other Pagan deities are often claimed by the Catholic Church to be worshipping the Devil and his minions.[21] > * Witches (claimed by the Catholic Church to be servants of the Devil), resulting in the Witch trials in Early Modern Europe.[21] > * Gilles de Rais (1400s, France).[21] > * Johann Georg Faust (1500s, Germany)[21]. Many instructions, in German and in Latin, for making a pact with the Devil were attributed to him. These were collected and published in Germany in a few of the volumes of Das Kloster (1845-1849). > * Urbain Grandier (1600s, France). Although set up by the Catholic Church, a very famous document, in Latin, of a pact with the Devil he allegedly wrote, has been preserved.[21] > * People involved in the Poison affair, such as Catherine Deshayes and Etienne Guibourg (1600s, France). The documentation from their trial is the principal Medieval source for information on the Black Mass.[22][23] > * The Marquis de Sade (1700s, France), described by some authors as being devoted to Satanism.[24] His works graphically described blasphemy against the Catholic Church, such as an orgy resembling a Black Mass conducted by Pope Pius VI in the Vatican (in his novel Juliette ). > * In 1865 the anti-Vatican Italian poet Giosuè Carducci, published his poem praising Satan as the god of reason and expressing hatred towards Christianity, Inno a Satana ("Hymn to Satan"). (Carducci's poem contains both Italian declinations of Satan: Satana and Satani). > * Many adherents of the Decadent movement, such as the Polish author Stanisław Przybyszewski, the Belgian artist Félicien Rops, and the French poet Charles Baudelaire (who published his poem, Les Litanies de Satan, "The Litanies of Satan" in 1857) either called themselves Satanists, or created overtly satanist artwork and literature.[25] > * Some French movements widely described as being Satanist by French writers of the time (Late 1800s to early 1900s). The most well-known description available in English, is the 1891 novel Là-Bas, by Joris-Karl Huysmans. However, there were numerous other well-known personalities in France that were related to the circles Huysmans describes, such as Joseph-Antoine Boullan, Stanislas de Guaita, Henri Antoine Jules-Bois, and Joséphin Péladan, who either wrote about Satanism in France, or were accused of being Satanists themselves.[26][27] > * Freemasonry was described as being Satanist, also in France at the same time, by the elaborate, completely discredited Taxil hoax[28]. > * At least two Satanic (or "Luciferian") sects existed in France in the 1930s. One was led by Maria de Naglowska, and had rituals dedicated to Satan and Lucifer.[29] Another, led by a former Catholic priest, celebrated an inversion of the Latin Mass (a "Luciferian Mass"), which included the phrase "In nomine Domini Dei nostri Satanae Luciferi Excelsi" (a phrase that re-appeared 30 years later in Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible).[30] > * The Ophite Cultus Satanas ("the Ophite Cult of Satan"), a group founded in Ohio in 1948, said they worshipped the Ophite serpent, which they called Satanas (Satan). > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/171 "2010-04-21T03:26:48Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Politicians’ religious beliefs shouldn’t be anyone’s business unless there’s good reason to believe it’s going to affect the way they govern. The only one that somewhat bothers me with regards to Romney is the mormon church’s stance on black people, but they changed their policy over 30 years ago, so . . . I’m personally kind of iffy about the LDS’s _present_ stance on gay people, actually, but since it’s pretty consistent with most of the rest of Christianity, at least, it’s kind of a moot point. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/172 "2010-04-21T03:29:13Z")
Indeed. Bigoted dickwads are coast-to-coast. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/173 "2010-04-21T04:52:02Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’m personally kind of iffy about the LDS’s _present_ stance on gay people, actually, but since it’s pretty consistent with most of the rest of Christianity, at least, it’s kind of a moot point. Their official stance on women, blacks, gays and polygamy has changed. But does that mean it has? Saying we don’t discriminate against women or blacks in the church, while the evidence is they are not treating them as equals at all ,does not end the debate. Just saying it is not enough.. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/174 "2010-04-21T05:01:16Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **gonzomax** : Didn’t you already do the RO thing about Mountain Meadows and find out that there was no evidence that the perpetrators were anyone else other than the locals? I did not start it but I did not remember that as the result. I remember the Mormons did it , but it was not proven that Mormon leaders ordered it. > **[Mountain Meadows Massacre - Mountain Meadows Massacre](https://mountainmeadowsmassacre.com/)** > > \[et\_pb\_section fb\_built=”1″ fullwidth=”on” admin\_label=”section” \_builder\_version=”4.16″ global\_colors\_info=”{}”\]\[et\_pb\_fullwidth\_slider show\_arrows=”off” show\_pagination=”off” admin\_label=”Fullwidth Slider” \_builder\_version=”4.16″... ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/175 "2010-04-21T08:14:38Z")
Well, let’s [refresh your memory](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=534291), shall we? [QUOTE=gonzomaz] Their official stance on women, blacks, gays and polygamy has changed. But does that mean it has? Saying we don’t discriminate against women or blacks in the church, while the evidence is they are not treating them as equals at all ,does not end the debate. Just saying it is not enough.. [/quote] Oh, having Black members serving as bishops and stake presidents isn’t treating them equally? News to me. I understand that for very many people, restricting the priesthood to males will always mean that the church isn’t treating women equally. That same charge is made against the Catholic church by the same people. I’m curious, though, **gonzomax**. Is it just the LDS you’ve got the hate on for or is it religion in general and this just happens to be the battle du jour for you? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/176 "2010-04-21T09:30:16Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I understand that for very many people, restricting the priesthood to males will always mean that the church isn’t treating women equally. That same charge is made against the Catholic church by the same people. Am I missing something here? If you are restricting women from certain positions while allowing men into those positions, then you’re not treating women equally. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/177 "2010-04-21T09:42:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You’re the first openly gay Hindu I’ve ever personally heard of. I was starting to worry there was something wrong with my people, hijras aside. There are gay South Asian orgs in many large Western cities, so you’ll find a number of openly gay Hindus and Muslims there. But keep in mind that the Delhi court recently ruled against sodomy laws in Delhi, so there are openly gay people in India as well (specifically, the people who brought the case). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/178 "2010-04-21T12:00:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Falwell spent years trying to convince Reagan to start a nuclear war so the the world would end. > > Hardly; I was thinking of James Watt of the Reagan Administration when I posted that. There IS no belief so extreme as to make you unelectable, as long as it is a Christian one. Cite for your Falwell claim. You’re awareness of Falwell’s eschatological scenario seems to be lacking. Also, the James Watt quote was either made up deliberately or unintentionally misreported by Bill Moyers. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/179 "2010-04-21T12:32:19Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Cite for your Falwell claim. Why bother? You will just claim it was made up deliberately or unintentionally misreported. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419/180 "2010-04-21T12:47:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why bother? You will just claim it was made up deliberately or unintentionally misreported. Because this is GD, where posting unsubstantiated claims and failing to provide cites when asked will make you a richly deserving pariah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-fair-questions-for-mitt-romney-about-mormonism/536419.md?page=10)