# Some honesty on the NSA scandal from a former French foreign minister **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 30, 2013, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638 "2013-10-30T10:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/1 "2013-10-30T10:50:39Z")
"Let’s be honest, we eavesdrop too. Everyone is listening to everyone else. But we don’t have the same means as the United States, which makes us jealous. " [That’s from Bernard Kouchner on Oct. 23rd.](http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/let-s-be-honest-we-eavesdrop-too-former-french-foreign-minister-on-nsa-spying-claims-1.1509912) Here’s the quote in context. > [@](#): > > ``` > But the official French position --that friendly nations should not spy on each another -- can't be taken literally, a former French foreign minister said. > > "The magnitude of the eavesdropping is what shocked us," Bernard Kouchner said Tuesday in a radio interview. "Let's be honest, we eavesdrop too. Everyone is listening to everyone else. But we don't have the same means as the United States, which makes us jealous. " > > The French government, which until this week had been largely silent in the face of widespread U.S. snooping on its territory, may have other reasons to speak out now. The furor over the NSA managed to draw media attention away from France's controversial expulsion of a Roma family at a time when French President Francois Hollande's popularity is at a historic low. Just 23 per cent of French approve of the job he is doing, according to a recent poll. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/2 "2013-10-30T13:43:03Z")
That’s pretty much what I assumed was going on; that other countries were either doing it less effectively than the US is/was, or that they wanted to, but we’re the only ones with the resources to successfully pull it of, or pull it off on the scale that we did. I’m still much more disturbed about PRISM than this; I always assumed that we were spying on everybody- friend and foe alike. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/3 "2013-10-30T14:24:09Z")
Of course France is jealous - they’re not part of Five Eyes, and probably never will be. [According to a former top U.S. official, "Germany joining would be a possibility, but not France – France itself spies on the US far too aggressively for that.](http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/germany-impedes-eu-privacy-efforts-despite-outrage-at-nsa-spying-a-930488.html) ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/4 "2013-10-30T14:26:39Z")
I had that same thought while listening to a story about the ‘scandal’ this morning. I kinda wish someone from the administration had come out and said “yea, the real reason you’re mad is that you failed at tapping Obama’s phone and we succeeded at tapping yours”. Besides, no matter what is said before congress, it’s not like they’re going to stop spying on each other. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/5 "2013-10-30T14:40:14Z")
I posted the same sentiment yesterday in another thread, from a different French former official. > [@](#): > > In response to that a former French Intelligence official suggested that such activity on the part of the United States is nothing new or unusual. > > “The French intelligence services know full well that all countries, whether or not they are allies in the fight against terrorism, spy on each other all the time,” said Bernard Squarcini, former head of the Direction Centrale du Renseignement Intérieur (DCRI) intelligence service until last year, told French daily LeFigaro . > > “The Americans spy on French commercial and industrial interests, and we do the same to them because it’s in the national interest to protect our companies”, he said as he shrugged his shoulders. > > “There was nothing of any real surprise in this report,” he added. “No one is fooled.” Spying on allies is all in a day’s work”, Squarcini added. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/6 "2013-10-30T15:11:35Z")
Oh, good, other nations behave badly, too. That _totally_ justifies our bad behavior. No need to ask probing questions about the value of the intelligence obtained illegally vs. the cost of obtaining it. Let’s just pat ourselves on the back, instead. America! Yeah! ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/7 "2013-10-30T15:34:35Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Oh, good, other nations behave badly, too. That _totally_ justifies our bad behavior. No need to ask probing questions about the value of the intelligence obtained illegally vs. the cost of obtaining it. Let’s just pat ourselves on the back, instead. America! Yeah! I don’t think that’s it, but it was it little like one whore pointing indignantly to another and shouting ‘WHORE!’ ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/8 "2013-10-30T15:36:23Z")
Well, yeah. But we’re still a whore. Let’s be better than a whore, and then who cares what those whores call us? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/9 "2013-10-30T17:11:47Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Well, yeah. But we’re still a whore. Being a whore, in this instance, undoubtedly proves remarkably valuable. As the original quote points out, this is less international indignance in the sense of any other government seriously saying “You’re better than that!” so much as it’s envy that we can do what they wish they could do. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/10 "2013-10-30T17:19:53Z")
What exactly would we lose if we just stopped the spying on allies altogether? ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/11 "2013-10-30T17:23:11Z")
I just about fell off my chair when I heard the sixth grade level “everybody else does it” defense. The only other people I know that use that one are usually criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/12 "2013-10-30T18:25:18Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Being a whore, in this instance, undoubtedly proves remarkably valuable. “Undoubtedly”: I doubt it. To continue the whore analogy, I like sex and I like earning money. I’ve seen some of the guys who sell themselves for crack, and I’m pretty sure I could make at least as much as they do. But I don’t do it: I voluntarily refrain from having sex for money. Why? Because there are risks (it’s illegal, there’s disease and violence), and they are greater than the rewards. Moreover, I have other access to both sex and money. Equally, our government has access to plenty of legitimate sources of information; the value is in collating and analyzing them. I’d like to see a cite that illegally obtained information is better than legally obtained information, and further that it is enough better to justify the risks. > [@Jophiel](#): > > As the original quote points out, this is less international indignance in the sense of any other government seriously saying “You’re better than that!” so much as it’s envy that we can do what they wish they could do. Well, sure, but only care what the French think of us for practical reasons: the diplomacy game, in which we’ve lost a few points, and the hit to our economy that comes from fewer people wanting to deal with us. Both of these are quite minor, but they add up in the long term. More important is being the country we want to be, not using our might to behave like a bully\* in a china shop. \*Metaphor deliberately malapropped. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/13 "2013-10-30T18:38:10Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > What exactly would we lose if we just stopped the spying on allies altogether? The (to me) obvious and invaluable foreign policy advantage that comes from knowing what the other guy is actually thinking and not just what he’s telling you. Be it trade issues, support for military action, wanting support for some global carbon initative or whatever. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Because there are risks (it’s illegal, there’s disease and violence), and they are greater than the rewards. That nice but, in this instance, the rewards seem greater than the risks. > [@](#): > > I’d like to see a cite that illegally obtained information is better than legally obtained information, and further that it is enough better to justify the risks. Won’t happen since it’s obviously impossible to quantify in that manner. > [@](#): > > Well, sure, but only care what the French think of us for practical reasons: the diplomacy game, in which we’ve lost a few points, and the hit to our economy that comes from fewer people wanting to deal with us. That assumes either will happen which I doubt. > [@](#): > > More important is being the country we want to be I want to be the country with the upper hand. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/14 "2013-10-30T18:41:47Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > I just about fell off my chair when I heard the sixth grade level “everybody else does it” defense. The “defense” is the idea that the intelligence gained is valuable and beneficial to the government in numerous ways. The “every one does it” remark is just a reason to cut the false outrage and foot stomping. But even if no one else did it, the intelligence gained would still be extremely valuable (probably more so since we’d be the only ones having it). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/15 "2013-10-30T18:52:47Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > That nice but, in this instance, the rewards seem greater than the risks. That is your belief. That belief is unfounded, as you have just said that you have no evidence and it’s untestable anyway. Therefore, there is no reason for me to share your belief. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/16 "2013-10-30T18:55:59Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > That is your belief. That belief is unfounded, as you have just said that you have no evidence and it’s untestable anyway. Therefore, there is no reason for me to share your belief. That doesn’t especially bother me since I’m not the one flustered about it and demanding it change (hint: it won’t). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/17 "2013-10-30T18:56:26Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’d like to see a cite that illegally obtained information is better than legally obtained information, and further that it is enough better to justify the risks. To use the most blatantly obvious historical example, [Cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_missile_crisis#Aerial_images_find_Soviet_missiles) ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/18 "2013-10-30T19:27:57Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > What exactly would we lose if we just stopped the spying on allies altogether? Is “allies” really the right word though? I think we need one similar to “frenemies.” 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/19 "2013-10-30T21:58:36Z")
Years ago I made a pact with myself to never use that word and I’m not about to start now! ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/20 "2013-10-30T22:11:19Z")
I know what you mean. Something that captures the contradiction though. I like ‘mallies.’ Phallies might work but might not be obvious enough. IDK. No imagination this afternoon. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638.md?page=2)