# Some honesty on the NSA scandal from a former French foreign minister **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 30, 2013, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638 "2013-10-30T10:50:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/21 "2013-10-30T23:53:02Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > What exactly would we lose if we just stopped the spying on allies altogether? Do you think it would be a valuable thing to do regardless of whether anyone else is doing it to this country or not? To hell with any advantage they gain — the moral high road is more valuable? (Genuine question.) I would guess some of the “they do it too” thing is the implicit statement by the “finger wagging” that “WE don’t do it to YOU, thus we are superior.” (Or else, “we are shocked — SHOCKED…”) Thus, the desire to demonstrate that such isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/22 "2013-10-31T01:48:28Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > What exactly would we lose if we just stopped the spying on allies altogether? In contrast to spying on allies and enemies equally? There’d be the considerable expense of having to workout exactly who were your allies. That’s not always as easy as you’d think. There’s also the factor that most of your allies are easier to spy on than the other mob. Further they also tend have better relationships with the other mob than you do. So what your allies know about the other mob augments and cross validates what you can determine on your Todd Malone. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/23 "2013-10-31T11:09:43Z")
If you’ve been caught cheating on your spouse (mass surveillance of citizens), people are going to raise eyebrows when you actually do work late at the office (snoop on foreign politicians). ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/24 "2013-10-31T12:14:07Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Being a whore, in this instance, undoubtedly proves remarkably valuable. Only if you take a bunch of professional criminals at their word that they’re earning their multi-billion dollar paycheque. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/25 "2013-10-31T13:19:09Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Only if you take a bunch of professional criminals at their word that they’re earning their multi-billion dollar paycheque. No. It’s pretty obvious on the face of it that having the inside track on what the other person is thinking is incredibly valuable when negotiating and dealing with that person. If I could listen in on the manager of a car dealership in his office when buying a car, it would benefit me. If I knew exactly what mark I had to hit to be within the construction budget when submitting a work proposal, it would benefit me. If I could read the emails and listen to the phone calls of a desired romantic companion and learn what she thought was annoying about me and what she liked, it would benefit me. I’m not arguing the ethics of any of those situations just that it doesn’t take the word of a “professional criminal” to noodle out that knowing these things benefits you in your goals. Know what other heads of state are thinking (rather than just publicly saying) is invaluable to our government. Knowing what our head of state is thinking is invaluable to other governments. Not just your enemies but your allies and really anyone you have dealings with. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/26 "2013-10-31T16:32:43Z")
I’ve lived long enough to see what all that spying did both to our country and to many other countries around the word. It hasn’t been good. it might sound like wonderful technology and the stuff of a good spy novel to younger people but it has been an instrument of death and discord. Time to bring all that surveillance equipment home where it can be used on American citizens, yeah? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/27 "2013-10-31T17:52:14Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I had that same thought while listening to a story about the ‘scandal’ this morning. I kinda wish someone from the administration had come out and said “yea, the real reason you’re mad is that you failed at tapping Obama’s phone and we succeeded at tapping yours”. > > Besides, no matter what is said before congress, it’s not like they’re going to stop spying on each other. I agree, but I wouldn’t make the assumption that they failed to tap the Obamaphone… ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/28 "2013-11-01T21:16:31Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > Is “allies” really the right word though? I think we need one similar to “frenemies.” 🆒 I agree with a poster I once saw in a secured former workplace: **Countries don’t have “friends”. They have interests.** ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/29 "2013-11-01T22:54:23Z")
Are you all the same folks who thought unilateral disarmament was a good idea in the 70s and 80s, too? Because that’s what NOT spying is…unilateral disarmament. It’s a stupid idea and it’s incredibly naive to actually advocate it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/30 "2013-11-01T23:31:56Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Are you all the same folks who thought unilateral disarmament was a good idea in the 70s and 80s, too? I am, though in both cases in conjunction with other things (cultural exchanges, bi- and multilateral projects, the UN, etc.). I just have this crazy notion that if your ideas are sensible and sustainable, you don’t have to threaten people to get them to go along. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638/31 "2013-11-02T11:30:23Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > No. It’s pretty obvious on the face of it that having the inside track on what the other person is thinking is incredibly valuable when negotiating and dealing with that person. If I could listen in on the manager of a car dealership in his office when buying a car, it would benefit me. If I knew exactly what mark I had to hit to be within the construction budget when submitting a work proposal, it would benefit me. If I could read the emails and listen to the phone calls of a desired romantic companion and learn what she thought was annoying about me and what she liked, it would benefit me. I’m not arguing the ethics of any of those situations just that it doesn’t take the word of a “professional criminal” to noodle out that knowing these things benefits you in your goals. > > Know what other heads of state are thinking (rather than just publicly saying) is invaluable to our government. Knowing what our head of state is thinking is invaluable to other governments. Not just your enemies but your allies and really anyone you have dealings with. In all your examples, the costs of doing the spying far outweigh the benefits. BUt that’s not the most freakish aspect of spying - what’s really insane is this idea of existing in a world where you want to know every move by whoever - direct, indirect or no relation at all. The whole apparatus is being flooded with data that is impossible to process at any meaningful level and thus the whole enterprise becomes a self-fueling paranoid machine that, at one point, starts living off of itself. In other words, there is so much spying and data where it is impossible to develop any meaningful information so to confirm what you learned yesterday, you have to expand the scope of spying today. At one point it becomes a Ponzi scheme of spying where every new source being spied requires ever more new sources for data collected to be verified. And on and on and on. Just imagine what it takes to figure out if someone on the tape is being sarcastic? It’s insane but everybody pretends it’s a James Bond movie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-honesty-on-the-nsa-scandal-from-a-former-french-foreign-minister/672638.md?page=1)