# Some ideas on defeating ISIS **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699 "2015-11-16T15:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/21 "2015-11-16T22:38:18Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > the bolsheviks achieved sympathy in their target audiences and achieved control of a major nation quickly. The Daesh do not and did not. > > if you want to find bad analogies, it is better to look at the anarchist movements. So you’re saying that Daesh didn’t find sympathy within the disenfranchised Sunni communities of both Iraq and Syria? Right :dubious: On another minor note, do you try to insult everyone you disagree with? What’s with your attitude man? The Anarchist analogy you provided would be more fitting of the YPG. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/22 "2015-11-16T23:23:19Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > On another minor note, do you try to insult everyone you disagree with? What’s with your attitude man? Yeah. Ramira, I appreciate a lot of your insight and you often correct some commonly held misconceptions, but there’s a saying in English: “you don’t have to be a jerk about it”. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/23 "2015-11-16T23:26:51Z")
Pretty much the only reason we care about that region is oil, right? How about we pour massive, massive amounts of money into electric cars and alternative energy research? If we achieve true energy independence then we can just leave the entire area to self-destruct. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/24 "2015-11-16T23:27:21Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So you’re saying that Daesh didn’t find sympathy within the disenfranchised Sunni communities of both Iraq and Syria? Right :dubious: Did I say such a thing? No, you make a reference to Bolshevism which was a global effect and had huge and wide sympathies among the Left groups globally. To refer to them is to distort and use a bad analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/25 "2015-11-16T23:54:37Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Sic Anonymous on them. > > [http://www.computerworld.com/article/3005475/cyberattacks/anonymous-just-might-make-all-the-difference-in-attacking-isis.html](http://www.computerworld.com/article/3005475/cyberattacks/anonymous-just-might-make-all-the-difference-in-attacking-isis.html) That’s probably the closest ISIS will get to 72 virgins. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/26 "2015-11-17T00:02:32Z")
The single biggest thing to do is stop leaving fucking great political vacuums in the middle east, and killing so many people those left will do almost anything for revenge. Given it’s too late for that, we have to fill that vacuum with something else. At this point, I’d take Assad, Putin and Edith Piaf. I’m still looking for a bass player. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/27 "2015-11-17T01:04:36Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Did I say such a thing? > > No, you make a reference to Bolshevism which was a global effect and had huge and wide sympathies among the Left groups globally. > > To refer to them is to distort and use a bad analogy. You think political Islam doesn’t have a global reach? What planet are you living on? No, I made a reference to Bolshevism being a radical ideology of which was the most organised and motivated in comparison to its fractured opponents. The same environment exists between Iraq and Syria. And it’s not a bad analogy, both organisations were borne out of the ashes of a repressive government and war, both did not believe in a pluralistic government, both have been supported by outside state actors, both have situations where there has been international involvement to contain and defeat them, the only different will be the outcome. And to say again > [@](#): > > On another minor note, do you try to insult everyone you disagree with? What’s with your attitude man? Pray tell? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/28 "2015-11-17T03:20:37Z")
I think at this point the Western world is ok if Putin and Assad fill the power vacuum, and they seem interested. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/29 "2015-11-17T03:27:57Z")
ISIL seems to use a lot of social media. We could start a flame war on all the big social media websites - YouTube, Facebook, Friendster, Amazon, Yahoo Answers, Bing, etsy, Zappos, iPhone, IKEA - all the big ones. If all the world works together we could get some really good snaps in against ISIL. Cyber bullying is a big problem these days so we should cyber bully ISIL. That will probably work. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/30 "2015-11-17T04:48:55Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > That’s probably the closest ISIS will get to 72 virgins. :D:D:D > [@](#): > > Pretty much the only reason we care about that region is oil, right? How about we pour massive, massive amounts of money into electric cars and alternative energy research? If we achieve true energy independence then we can just leave the entire area to self-destruct. Seriously, how much is ISIS financed with oil money? If we stopped buying oil from the middle east, paid more for our local oil, and ramped up alternative energy, how much would that affect them? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/31 "2015-11-17T04:54:47Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > :D:D:D > > Seriously, how much is ISIS financed with oil money? If we stopped buying oil from the middle east, paid more for our local oil, and ramped up alternative energy, how much would that affect them? IMHO this will happen to them much faster: “My grandfather rode a camel, my father rode a camel, I drive a Mercedes, my son drives a Land Rover, his son will drive a Land Rover, but his son will ride a camel.” - Sheikh Rashid bin Saeed Al Maktoum ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/32 "2015-11-17T08:36:40Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You think political Islam doesn’t have a global reach? What planet are you living on? this one, even better I understand the topic is DAESH, and they are despised even by their closer in ideology Salafist movements. And I do not confuse the broad and the vague category “political Islam” with the idea of takfiri movements or even salafiste movements, none of these are the synonyms. So yes, a stupid analogy that fails on multiple different levels and is badly informed. Digging any deeper is just to give credence to a multiply failed attempt at an analogy. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/33 "2015-11-17T08:57:31Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > No, you make a reference to Bolshevism which was a global effect and had huge and wide sympathies among the Left groups globally. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > You think political Islam doesn’t have a global reach? Political Islam certainly has a very wide reach, but if political Islam is analogized to World Communism, then I think ISIS would be best analogized to the Khmer Rouge: the most extreme, insanely murderous, and generally batshit crazy fringe of a much larger movement. And it’s worth remembering that [the Khmer Rouge was ultimately brought down by the Vietnamese People’s Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War). While I would certainly personally prefer that everyone in the Middle East embrace secular democracy and the separation of mosque and state, realistically, if we’re going to bring down ISIS, we may have no choice but to make a certain degree of common cause with people we don’t always like much, including supporters of various sorts of “political Islam”. Although it has been greatly overshadowed by the Paris attacks, ISIS is also blamed for a pair of brutal suicide bombings in Beirut that were killed dozens of ordinary civilians…and were aimed at Hezbollah. (See also this [Fred Kaplan article in _Slate_](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2015/11/how_to_defeat_isis_a_military_and_diplomatic_plan.single.html).) To say that we’ll fight ISIS _and_ Iran and its allies (e.g., Hezbollah) _and_ the Assad regime in Syria (which also has sort of a marriage of convenience with Iran) _and_ al-Qaeda is just not realistic. I’m not saying we can’t oppose more than one of those groups at the same time, but something’s going to have to give here–probably unthinking American hostility to Iran (and unthinking Iranian hostility to America). ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/34 "2015-11-17T09:03:36Z")
Following a full-scale military offensive by a US-led coalition, a 1950’s-1970’s -style friendly dictatorship will be set up in the ISIS areas. That dictatorship will have zero-tolerance to any form of extremism, will stay on friendly terms with the US and her allies, and will agree to a continued presence of US coalition forces. In return, the US and its allies will have full access to all resources and development work for both extractive and value-adding industries. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/35 "2015-11-17T10:58:51Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > this one, even better I understand the topic is DAESH, and they are despised even by their closer in ideology Salafist movements. > > And I do not confuse the broad and the vague category “political Islam” with the idea of takfiri movements or even salafiste movements, none of these are the synonyms. > > So yes, a stupid analogy that fails on multiple different levels and is badly informed. > > Digging any deeper is just to give credence to a multiply failed attempt at an analogy. I’m not equating Salafi Wahhabi movements as a blanket coverage of ‘Political Islam’ but it falls under its umbrella. And **you** should know that. I’m stating that the parallels between the Bolsheviks during the Civil war in Russia and Daesh in Syria are that they are the most ruthless organisations within the regions they inhabit, and that the parallels of foreign intervention, financing, and opposition are similar, only the outcome will determine what will happen next. How this goes over your head I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/36 "2015-11-17T11:17:15Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Political Islam certainly has a very wide reach, but if political Islam is analogized to World Communism, then I think ISIS would be best analogized to the Khmer Rouge: the most extreme, insanely murderous, and generally batshit crazy fringe of a much larger movement. And it’s worth remembering that [the Khmer Rouge was ultimately brought down by the Vietnamese People’s Army](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War). > > While I would certainly personally prefer that everyone in the Middle East embrace secular democracy and the separation of mosque and state, realistically, if we’re going to bring down ISIS, we may have no choice but to make a certain degree of common cause with people we don’t always like much, including supporters of various sorts of “political Islam”. Although it has been greatly overshadowed by the Paris attacks, ISIS is also blamed for a pair of brutal suicide bombings in Beirut that were killed dozens of ordinary civilians…and were aimed at Hezbollah. (See also this [Fred Kaplan article in _Slate_](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2015/11/how_to_defeat_isis_a_military_and_diplomatic_plan.single.html).) > > To say that we’ll fight ISIS _and_ Iran and its allies (e.g., Hezbollah) _and_ the Assad regime in Syria (which also has sort of a marriage of convenience with Iran) _and_ al-Qaeda is just not realistic. I’m not saying we can’t oppose more than one of those groups at the same time, but something’s going to have to give here–probably unthinking American hostility to Iran (and unthinking Iranian hostility to America). The Bolsheviks were just as brutal during the Russian civil war. Lenin hated the Social democrats and other left wingers who were wanting to compromise with a democratic framework. That’s why he overthrew Kerensky’s government. > **[Red Terror](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror)** > > The Red Terror (Russian: красный террор, romanized: krasnyy terror) was a campaign of political repression and executions in Soviet Russia carried out by the Bolsheviks, chiefly through the Cheka, the Bolshevik secret police. It officially started in early September 1918 and lasted until 1922. Arising after assassination attempts on Vladimir Lenin along with the successful assassinations of Petrograd Cheka leader Moisei Uritsky and party editor V. Volodarsky in alleged retaliation for Bo More b... > **[Lenin's hanging order](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin's_Hanging_Order)** > > Lenin's hanging order is a telegram from Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin ordering the suppression and execution of captured participants in the kulak revolt in the Penza Governorate. It was first called the "Hanging Order" by the U.S. Library of Congress. The telegram was addressed to Vasily Kurayev \[ru\] (Penza Soviet chairman), Yevgenia Bosch (the chairwoman of Penza Governorate Party Committee) and Aleksandr Minkin \[ru\] (the chairman of Penza Governorate ispolkom) and other Penza communists Du... I understand that you’d equate it with the Khmer rouge, however, the Khmers were primarily concerned with consolidating their power in Cambodia, where as with Isis, they are intent on expanding, which has parallels with the Bolsheviks who wanted to go on into Europe to expand their revolution (Particularly Germany) after WWI. ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/37 "2015-11-17T12:26:11Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Following a full-scale military offensive by a US-led coalition, a 1950’s-1970’s -style friendly dictatorship will be set up in the ISIS areas. That dictatorship will have zero-tolerance to any form of extremism, will stay on friendly terms with the US and her allies, and will agree to a continued presence of US coalition forces. In return, the US and its allies will have full access to all resources and development work for both extractive and value-adding industries. If you add that there will be a major investment program, leading to a western style standard of living and gradually allowing them more democracy until giving them free elections in 20 years time or so, this might work. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/38 "2015-11-17T12:46:18Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > If you add that there will be a major investment program, leading to a western style standard of living and gradually allowing them more democracy until giving them free elections in 20 years time or so, this might work. Erm, we’ve tried that across the region, and it didn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/39 "2015-11-17T12:48:16Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > If you add that there will be a major investment program, leading to a western style standard of living and gradually allowing them more democracy until giving them free elections in 20 years time or so, this might work. Good morning MR Rumsfeld. How’s retirement treating you? ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699/40 "2015-11-17T12:51:46Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Following a full-scale military offensive by a US-led coalition, a 1950’s-1970’s -style friendly dictatorship will be set up in the ISIS areas. That dictatorship will have zero-tolerance to any form of extremism, will stay on friendly terms with the US and her allies, and will agree to a continued presence of US coalition forces. In return, the US and its allies will have full access to all resources and development work for both extractive and value-adding industries. > [@Uniqueorn](#): > > If you add that there will be a major investment program, leading to a western style standard of living and gradually allowing them more democracy until giving them free elections in 20 years time or so, this might work. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Erm, we’ve tried that across the region, and it didn’t work. When did you try that? The important part is to establish a pro-western dictatorship, not allowing free elections immediately. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-ideas-on-defeating-isis/737699.md?page=3)