# Some More Pitting of Iran **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 29, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085 "2011-09-29T23:56:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/21 "2011-10-01T15:23:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You have, as I recall, said you support execution as a punishment for treason. If Nadarkhani was accused of political opposition to the Iranian government rather than religious opposition, and he was convicted of treason, would you agree that he should be executed? > > Just so this isn’t a “gotcha”, I’ll add that Islam is the official state religion of Iran and their government is theocratic to a large extent. So by Iranian law, opposition to the state religion is equivalent to opposition to the government. Opposition to the government is not treason. Again, what the fuck is wrong with you people? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/22 "2011-10-01T15:30:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > This has to be one of the most moronic statements I’ve seen on this site yet. Oooooooooooooooooooooooh for FUCK SAKE Ibn Warraq, everyone of your goddamn posts start with: “This has to be one of the most moronic statements I’ve seen on this site yet” ``` or something similar. ``` Read some book at some point in your life. I hear it expands vocabulary. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/23 "2011-10-01T15:40:00Z")
From the article: > [@](#): > > Nadarkhani was sentenced to death for apostasy last September based on religious writings by Iranian clerics, including Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran, despite the fact that there is no offense of “apostasy” in the nation’s penal code… That’s odd; I can find other reports of people in Iran being convicted of apostasy, such as the case of [Hashem Aghajari](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3053075.stm). Was he also illegally convicted, or has Iran since abolished its apostasy laws? I would find that surprising, given that the judicial system in Iran is based on Islamic sharia; the Koran is quite clear that apostasy is a grave offence, and even goes so far as to prescribe specific punishments for it, including execution. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/24 "2011-10-01T16:16:52Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Oooooooooooooooooooooooh for FUCK SAKE Ibn Warraq, everyone of your goddamn posts start with: > > “This has to be one of the most moronic statements I’ve seen on this site yet” > > ``` > or something similar. > > ``` > > Read some book at some point in your life. I hear it expands vocabulary. It’s “for FUCK’S SAKE” not “for FUCK SAKE”. Anyone when people make ignorant statements regarding Iran and trivialize and insult the regime’s victims I will criticize them. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/25 "2011-10-01T19:26:59Z")
This is what you get when you let religious zealots run the government. Better to keep the two separate. Hope it stays that way here. It’s okay for the US to kill it’s citizen’s, even though they sometimes get it wrong. But it’s a scandal when another country does it.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/26 "2011-10-02T01:49:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Not if he was just speaking out against the government only if he were say supporting foreign enemies or spying or something to that effect. Iran is an officially Islamic state. Christians are considered to be foreign enemies there. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/27 "2011-10-02T01:51:45Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Opposition to the government is not treason. > > Again, what the fuck is wrong with you people? What people are you talking about? Are you disagreeing with me? Are you disagreeing with Qin? Do you even know what we’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/28 "2011-10-02T02:10:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Iran is an officially Islamic state. Christians are considered to be foreign enemies there. Well that’s their damn fault for their definition of treason? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/29 "2011-10-02T04:08:17Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Naw, they cool. They just torture prisoners, execute homosexuals (even though there aren’t any in Iran), fund terrorist organizations, imprison hikers for several years, put down protests with the strongest possible means and stuff like that. They are really cute and cuddly… > > -XT Like us. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/30 "2011-10-02T04:09:53Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Like us. I was unaware that the US executed homosexuals. Would you mind providing me with some links to this. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/31 "2011-10-02T04:16:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Iran is an officially Islamic state. Christians are considered to be foreign enemies there. That’s not true at all. Christians are no more considered “foreign enemies” in Iran than they are in Israel. There are around 200-250 thousand Christians in Iran, almost all of whom are Armenians. They certainly face a considerable amount of soft discrimination but their situation isn’t dramatically different than what Egyptian Christians, Israeli Muslims or Israeli Christians face. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/32 "2011-10-02T04:56:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What people are you talking about? Are you disagreeing with me? Are you disagreeing with Qin? Do you even know what we’re talking about? Do you know what a strawman argument is? You are arguing against a position which Qin has not stated, but which you attribute to him anyway. Namely, that Iran is executing someone for treason, which Qin supports (hypocrisy-gotcha!). Iran is NOT executing a traitor to the government. They’re executing an apostate. It’s a despicable, barbaric execution which has no correlation with the American justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/33 "2011-10-02T05:23:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Just so this isn’t a “gotcha”, I’ll add that Islam is the official state religion of Iran and their government is theocratic to a large extent. So by Iranian law, opposition to the state religion is equivalent to opposition to the government. That’s also not true. Iran has large numbers of citizens who aren’t Muslims but who are Jews, Christians or Zoroastrians. The man’s crime is apostacy not treason. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/34 "2011-10-02T05:48:13Z")
> [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > The US doesn’t execute people for crimes other than murder, at least not for several decades and it’s now prohibited from doing so by the Supreme Court. In the first place, that’s not strictly true. It is true that no crimes **against an individual** that don’t involve the death of the victim can be punished with a capital sentence, which the Court decided in _Louisiana v. Kennedy_ in 2008. However, certain so-called “offenses against the state”, such as treason or espionage, are still subject to capital punishment even if no deaths are involved. In the second place, that wasn’t even my point. My point was that deciding that certain types of crimes are subject to capital punishment, while other types of crimes are not, is fundamentally an arbitrary choice. Different US states make different decisions about whether capital punishment is permissible at all and if so, what particular flavors of murder and/or state-level treason it applies to, under what particular combinations of aggravating circumstances. As I said, since the decisions we make about where to draw the capital-punishment line are arbitrary, it’s absurd to suggest that they have any kind of objective logic or justification. Mind you, I don’t dispute that death-penalty supporters sincerely believe that capital sentencing laws are justified: I’m just pointing out that they aren’t justified **objectively**. Different capital-punishment advocates in different jurisdictions disagree about what should count as a capital crime. They are not using objective universal criteria to make those decisions, since there **aren’t** any such criteria. Consequently, I repeat: while American use of the death penalty is definitely less extreme, inhumane and tyrannical than Iran’s, it is not ultimately less arbitrary. There is no objective standard for deciding whether any particular action deserves to be punished by death. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/35 "2011-10-02T05:59:41Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > That’s odd; I can find other reports of people in Iran being convicted of apostasy, such as the case of Hashem Aghajari. Was he also illegally convicted, or has Iran since abolished its apostasy laws? I would find that surprising, given that the judicial system in Iran is based on Islamic sharia IANA expert on Iranian law, but I have just been cracking my cortex over it concerning a parallel thread in GQ, and I believe the solution to this apparent paradox may lie in the effective desecularization of Iran’s judiciary since the Islamic Revolution. Briefly put, while the constitution and civil code of Iran AFAICT do not recognize apostasy from Islam as an offense against the law, that doesn’t stop a shari`a judge from imposing criminal penalties for it. …I think. Fuck this stuff is complicated. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/36 "2011-10-02T06:41:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > … expert on Iranian law … > > Briefly put, while the constitution and civil code of Iran AFAICT do not recognize apostasy from Islam as an offense against the law, that doesn’t stop a shari`a judge from imposing criminal penalties for it. … Close enough. Death for apostasy is rare, conceivable only for a high profile individual. Although penalties are applied unevenly throughout the country. Homosexuality (men only) is a much higher risk. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/37 "2011-10-02T07:01:06Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Close enough. Death for apostasy is rare, conceivable only for a high profile individual. Although penalties are applied unevenly throughout the country. Homosexuality (men only) is a much higher risk. I’ll agree that gay men are in more danger than Lesbians, particularly if they’re bottoms, Iranian Lesbians are also at risk. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/38 "2011-10-02T08:15:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In the first place, that’s not strictly true. It is true that no crimes **against an individual** that don’t involve the death of the victim can be punished with a capital sentence, which the Court decided in _Louisiana v. Kennedy_ in 2008. > > However, certain so-called “offenses against the state”, such as treason or espionage, are still subject to capital punishment even if no deaths are involved. > > In the second place, that wasn’t even my point. My point was that deciding that certain types of crimes are subject to capital punishment, while other types of crimes are not, is fundamentally an arbitrary choice. Different US states make different decisions about whether capital punishment is permissible at all and if so, what particular flavors of murder and/or state-level treason it applies to, under what particular combinations of aggravating circumstances. > > As I said, since the decisions we make about where to draw the capital-punishment line are arbitrary, it’s absurd to suggest that they have any kind of objective logic or justification. > > Mind you, I don’t dispute that death-penalty supporters sincerely believe that capital sentencing laws are justified: I’m just pointing out that they aren’t justified **objectively**. Different capital-punishment advocates in different jurisdictions disagree about what should count as a capital crime. They are not using objective universal criteria to make those decisions, since there **aren’t** any such criteria. > > Consequently, I repeat: while American use of the death penalty is definitely less extreme, inhumane and tyrannical than Iran’s, it is not ultimately less arbitrary. There is no objective standard for deciding whether any particular action deserves to be punished by death. Big deal. The justice system in its entirety is arbitrary. What’s the objective standard for imprisonment, restraining orders, fines, or traffic tickets? You can use your argument in its entirety to make a case (although quite a poor one) against any criminal punishment at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/39 "2011-10-02T09:28:16Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Not if he was just speaking out against the government only if he were say supporting foreign enemies or spying or something to that effect. Well, he’s supporting a foreign god who supposedly exists and is batting for the enemy (both assertions undebatable by you, who believe them wholeheartedly). That’s pretty darn treasonous ! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085/40 "2011-10-02T21:40:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, he’s supporting a foreign god who supposedly exists and is batting for the enemy (both assertions undebatable by you, who believe them wholeheartedly). That’s pretty darn treasonous ! What are you talking about? Iran doesn’t view Christians as traitors nor does it see them as worshippers of a false or “foreign God”. If Iran viewed Christians as engaging in Shirk(which is what you allege) then Iran would have them all killed because according to Islamic tradition Shirk is the worst thing one can do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-more-pitting-of-iran/598085.md?page=3)