Not only is a person’s willingness to be baptised a requirement, (and determinded in an interview) in the case of people under the age of legal consent a parents permission is required, as far as I know that permission is given in writing.
The quote below may help you understand why be practice what we call “Food Storage”, “Emergency Prepardness”, or “Provident Living”. I’m actually surprised to see it couched in such terms as “hording” here. You’d think with the hurricane approaching the coast and so many rushing to get “prepared”, why we do it would make sense to the general public.
Here is a link to a site called Provident Living where the principle is explained quite understandably. In brief it covers the churches teachings (not necessarily doctrine, though some are with regard to caring for others, food storage and emergency preparedness, resource management (managing personal finances), employment, education and literacy, social and emotional strength, and physical health.
What it boils down to is that it is our plan for caring for the poor and needy within and without the church, becoming more self reliant, and offering christian service to others. “Food Storage” is only one small component of that plan.
Finally, those of us who have it, are expected to share it with our neighbors when the need arises.
Okay, I guess we can use alteregos “assertions” as a teaching aid here.
Uh, no. You were not forcibly baptized. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not forcibly baptize anyone. Had you told the ward bishop that you did not believe in this church’s teachings, he would not have approved your baptism.
There are two ages at which children get baptized:
[list=a][li]At the age of eight years for the children of members of the church. This also requires the permission of the child’s parents.[/li][li]At the age of twelve years for the children of those who are not members of the church. If the prospective baptizee is under the age of 18 years, then this also requires the permission of the child’s parents.[/list][/li]
You will notice that both A & B require the permission of parents.
I really don’t see how this is relevant to this thread. At any rate, many wards sponsor Scout troops. The Scouts still confer a merit badge, IIRC, for marksmanship. AFAIK, it doesn’t matter what one’s religious affiliation is for earning that merit badge.
This is one of the bigoted comments to which I was referring above. We’re not hoarding food. Those families which are participating in the Emergency Preparedness program are ensuring they can sustain their family in the event of an emergency.
This would be sensible as one would not want to attempt to subsist on rotted goods.
This is another of the bigoted comments to which I referred above.
Since nobody forced your head under water, perhaps you should exercise that freedom in a more intelligent manner? FWIW: I don’t care one way or the other if you disagree with my church’s teachings. There are far better ways to show such disagreement than falsehoods and bigoted comments.
Abby: Thank you for the very good information & citation.
One expression in Abby’s quote is
That’s referring to the fifth Sunday in months with five Sundays. On those Sundays, the Priesthood and the Relief Society in each ward have a combined meeting.
With regards to the garment, I want to add that the purpose is largely symbolic. It serves much the same purpose of a priests collar or a wedding ring. It is an outward physical representation of an inward commmitment. Only in the case of our garment the outward physical representation is worn under the clothing because the committment/covenant is between the person and God, unlike in a marriage where the ring is a symbol of committment between two people (and for some also their God), or the priests collar representing his committment to the church.
It’s significance is to the wearer, it’s not necessary for anyone else to see, know about or discuss the symbol of the covenant or the covenant itself.
Hope that helps you understand. Fire Fox 40 is wrong. The temple is not reserved for higher ups. It is however reserved for the humble, charitable, obedient and faithful.
There are two merit badges issued by the Boy Scouts of America that deal with firearms (rifle shooting and shorgun shooting) in addition to about 120 other worthwhile skills and topics such as:
American Business
American Culture
American Heritage
American Labor
Animal Science
Archaeology
Archery
Architecture
Art
Astronomy
Athletics
Atomic Energy
Auto Mechanics
Aviation
Backpacking
Basketry
Bird Study
Bugling
Camping
Canoeing
Chemistry
Cinematography
Citizenship in the Community
Citizenship in the Nation
Citizenship in the World
Climbing
Coin Collecting
Collections
Communications
Computers
Cooking
Crime Prevention
Cycling
Dentistry
Disabilities Awareness
Dog Care
Drafting
Electricity
Electronics
Emergency Preparedness
Energy
Engineering
Entrepreneurship
Environmental Science
Family Life
Farm Mechanics
Fingerprinting
Fire Safety
First Aid
Fish and Wildlife Management
Fishing
Fly Fishing
Forestry
Gardening
Genealogy
Geology
Golf
Graphic Arts
Hiking
Home Repairs
Horsemanship
Indian Lore
Insect Study
Journalism
Landscape Architecture
Law
Leatherwork
Lifesaving
Mammal Study
Medicine
Metalwork
Model Design and Building
Motorboating
Music
Nature
Oceanography
Orienteering
Painting
Personal Fitness
Personal Management
Pets
Photography
Pioneering
Plant Science
Plumbing
Pottery
Public Health
Public Speaking
Pulp and Paper
Radio
Railroading
Reading
Reptile and Amphibian Study
Rifle Shooting
Rowing
Safety
Salesmanship
Scholarship
Sculpture
Shotgun Shooting
Skating
Small-Boat Sailing
Snow Sports
Soil and Water Conservation
Space Exploration
Sports
Stamp Collecting
Surveying
Swimming
Water Skiing
Weather
Whitewater
Wilderness Survival
Wood Carving
Woodworking
The Boy Scouts of America is part of the youth program of the church for boys and young men. Most LDS congregations do charter troops.
Quite frankly if the boys and young men (and it is a program in which the boys and young men do their own planning for activities) are interested in learning to shoot, I’m glad they are doing it in within a program designed to teach them proper handling, safety and care instead of shooting out lights in someones back woods or shooting from a car driving by a rival neighborhood.
Why do always take two Mormons with you to go fishing?
_ 'Cause if you take one he’ll drink all your beer…
Don’t jump on me. I know a lot of LDS’ers and they’ve all laughed at this sort of humor. Deep down they’re good people…
frookah - I answered the question above with an example - they try to find a Mormon who can do the work.
For some things like fire inspections they probably have to let the local authorities in regardless. They can’t have a 100% rigid policy of no Mormons allowed. If they really do have a fire I doubt they check the faith of the fireman who show up to put it out.
Just a few additional points from personal experience…
As has been mentioned, the temple garments are worn as part of the “advanced” covenants faithful Mormons are asked to make within the Temple. There’s nothing sinister about these covenants (well, not since they rewrote them to remove depictions of the grisly ways in which one would be willing to be killed if rather than ever reveal the covenants, but I digress…). They are basically just making a firm, sacred commitment to leading a holy life. The garments are basically just like regular underwear these days, except cut in such a way to necessitate a certain modesty in one’s style of dress. They also are adorned with subtle markings at the knee and heart as a reminder of the covenants made. In years past, the garments were a lot more “modest” – at one point, they went down to the ankles and wrists. The church has actually been very good over the years at making changes to the various rituals and requirements to make them more palatable to the members and society at large. Where once Mormons bragged about being “a strange people,” the current President and prophet of the church talks now about how mainstream they are.
With regard to misionary service, that has also evolved over the years. At one point, men were called for 3 years. Back in the 70s and early 80s it was dropped back to 18 months, and then was put back to 2 years. Service is not required, but there can be a lot of cultural pressure to go. If you are a Mormon male who doesn’t go on a mission, you will forever be forced to explain that you didn’t go (the number one question posed to any Mormon male over the age of 21 is “so, where did you serve your mission?”), and will also run the risk of being seen as “not dating material” by all the eligible Mormon misses out there. And yes, the missionaries do not choose where they get to go.
With regard to Temple marriages and divorces, it is interesting to note that plural marriage (polygamy), while no longer practiced here on earth by members of the church, is still considered a divine principle. For this reason, if a man and woman who were married in the temple get a civil divorce, the man can later remarry in the temple without needing to first get a temple divorce. The woman, however, MUST have a temple divorce in order to marry another man in the temple.
Yes, the Mormon Church has a lot of strange practices and beliefs. But no more so than any other religion that has been around for awhile. The difference is that the Mormon church believes in ongoing divine revelation and that God specifically told the members to do all these seemingly “weird” things. The Church therefore walks a fine line between wanting to deemphasize the “weirdness” and be seen as “regular” folks on the one hand, and not wanting to admit that God has changed his mind on the other hand.
As far as their core beliefs, the important thing to realize is that they do preach traditional Christian values such as loving thy neighbor as thyself. The fact that they have some “fringe” beliefs like baptism for the dead or temple garments doesn’t change the fact that the purpose of the church is to help people find comfort in the knowledge of God and Christ, and to exhort people to do good works.
Another note: although a number of the temples are large buildings, the current trend is to build smaller temples. You can check the links on this page and see for yourself that the more recently constructed temples are smaller than the grander ones of old.
Just wondering if calling a group of people ‘strange’ was bigotry?
Anyway - thought you might be interested to know that Canberra (capitol of Australia) has been abandoned by Mormons. When I was living in Aussie, the mormon church decided to stop sending missionaries there but they were not really clear as to why - a poor hit rate I guess.
I personally get a little frustrated by a church that sends 18 years olds out into the world to preach and convert. If I’m going to be persuaded by anyone, it ain’t gonna be this age group of life innocents who barely know their bible let alone the culture in which they find themselves. Talk about cultural and religious imperialism!
Routine maintence inside the temple, for example cleaning, pest control, minor maintenece and electrial repairs are awarded to contractors who can provide temple worthy personnel if possible.
This does not mean the business must be LDS owned. I am personnally aware of a business owned by someone not a member of record who employs an LDS temple worthy technician who is sent on appointments to the temple here in Houston.
It’s “thirty-aught-six”, “aught” being a synonym for “zero”. Numerically, it’s represented as 30.06, and refers to the caliber (diameter in hundredths of inches) of the firearm.
While I’m sure there’s ordinary variation from bishop to bishop, often a bishop will ask you some extremely private and personal questions which must be answered to their full gratifica…, er, satisfaction before being granted a recommend. I’m assured by many current and former Mormons that many of them will ask you if you masturbate, and if you answer “yes”, there’s a good chance you’ll be denied (or at the very least will be seriously warned and will be looked down upon and be held in some kind of probation until you stop).
Many will also ask you if you’ve had sex since your last recommend and, if so, who with. If you admit you had a sexual experience with someone of the same gender, you’re asking for a lot of grief and the chances are poor that you will be given a recommend. And you can pretty much guarantee that you’ll be treated forever thenceforth as a third-class member at best and will probably never get off probation (unless perhaps you enroll in something like reversion “therapy” and are later declared “straight”).
The LDS Church’s hatred of homosexuals and homosexuality is truly contemptible!
Note: On preview, I see this became a very long post. Sorry about that, it’s a difficult subject. Feel free to skip ahead as needed. I also see we may be moving away from factual questions and answers. If we’ve gotten too far afield with this, I apologize to the mods.
I think it’s practically a given they’ll quiz you about your sex life. Like most Christian religions, they’re definitely sensitive to all that “sins of the flesh” stuff, so it’s going to be a major check point on their list that you’re living a sexually pure life by their reckoning.
And while I think these are dumb things to judge your goodness quotient on, it’s their game and their rules. If you’re looking for a sex friendly (and especially gay friendly) religion, LDS probably isn’t the best choice. But while I’m not an expert, I don’t think it’s much different in this regard than most of the other major Christian denominations. Many of those aren’t particularly sex or gay friendly either. That probably counts as damning with faint praise, but my point is I don’t think you can single out the LDS in this regard.
On a side note, I don’t know of a good answer for people whose basic picture of themselves is at odds with their religious belief. I don’t imagine there are many harder things to deal with. Particularly for young people, the pressure to change themselves to conform must be horrible to live with. Someone very close to me dealt with this kind of problem for almost 15 years. It wasn’t LDS and being gay, it was a different religion and a different problem, but it was just as personal and just as hard to deal with. Near the end of her life she had mostly gotten past it, but it was still a kind of a background source of sadness. I don’t think she was ever completely convinced that she was not in some way a failure because of it. And that is one the great sadnesses of my life.
Back to the main theme, I also think it’s important to distinguish between LDS church policy, and the actions of the members. The policy says if you’re sexually impure (and by their rules this includes masturbation, sex outside of marriage, and gay sex) you can’t participate in temple services, and it probably says you can’t be bishop or other ward officer. But the policy doesn’t say you get looked down on, shunned, or treated differently in other situations. The fact that some members do these things just means they’re being jerks, not that they’re following policy. The fact that they are LDS is probably incidental. I think they’d be jerks anyway. Assholes always find a reason to be assholish. That’s why they’re assholes.
I didn’t leave the LDS church because of the treatment of gays, I left because I found out I wasn’t a believer in any religion, LDS included. But if I were to suddenly get the faith, as it were, I could not in good conscience be active LDS again without changes. I guess if I thought the LDS had the one true line to god, I’d have to start my own flavor with most of the rules the same but those. But pobably I’d go looking at Polycarp’s church.
But having said that, I’ll repeat that it’s their game and their rules. We don’t have to like it, but we don’t have to play either. Religion really is a choice. Where it becomes a problem is when a religion tries to make its beliefs public policy. This has been in problem in Utah over the years because the LDS are such a large group. When that happens, it’s time to speak out and stop it. Absent that, I don’t think we have much standing to interfere.
One last note about that knee-slapper in your post about the bishops getting gratification from questioning the members. Boy, I haven’t laughed that hard in seconds. Make sure you keep up those kinds of intelligent comments, they do reflect so well on the points you make.
I’m familiar with many religions and sects and their practices, and Mormons are the ONLY ones that I’ve ever heard of who engage in these Inquisition-type interrogation techniques. Can you cite other religions which demand that teenage girls and others reveal the details of their sex life before being considered good enough to be worthy of even watching a religious ceremony?
No?
Then your back-bending defense of such things by comparing them to other religions has no merit!
No one’s denying that. I was simply stating the fact that their game and their rules are such that old men may demand that young girls (and everyone else) detail their intimate sex lives to them in private! And please don’t continue to pretend that there’s nothing offensive about that! The LDS Church has been sued by members for just that reason.
Oh, how I love being the recipient of such insipid “information”. Please, oh, please tell me more…
The blind hatred of the LDS Church towards its truthful and “non-traditional” members is perhaps most offensive in the way it treats people who do NOT have a “choice” of membership, such as children raised by Mormons. I had a close gay Mormon friend who KILLED HIMSELF after the Church once again told him how wretchedly evil and God-hating he was merely by being gay! Sure, too many young gay men kill themselves when they learn how much they are hated by others, but when a religion that claims in their PR to be so loving and caring compels suicide by their sanctimonious official hatred, there’s something very, very wrong.
The LDS PR department has learned too much over the years to allow the written policy to include such things, but disgust and hatred and shunning towards those the more self-satisfied members feel are insufficiently worthy Mormons isn’t going to be curtailed by the mere absence of a written policy demanding it!
Tell that to all the children forcibly raised as Mormons who entirely lack the freedom necessary to be able to make a genuine choice. I had no problem leaving the Roman Catholic Church without losing the love and respect of my family, but few Mormons have that kind of genuinely loving freedom.
Not the LDS religion! As a regular participant at a Mormon/ex-Mormon board, I’ve encountered hundreds of Mormons who wanted to leave the Church but were effectively prevented by their Mormon families, many of which threatened disinheritance, shunning, divorce and other emotional blackmail against those wishing to leave. You should read the horrific histories of so many of these people!
Too bad for you; you must live a miserable life what with all that incredible stretching and back-bending you’re forced to do defending the indefensible. It must take a real toll on what’s left of your withered sense of “humor”.
But as I reported previously, the LDS Church HAS been sued for precisely that reason: Old male bishops asking intolerably embarrassing, sexually explicit questions of young girls. You have the freedom to laugh at these abused children’s expense all you want.
(For what it’s worth, my response wouldn’t have been so vigorous if you hadn’t insulted me so personally and snarkily there.)
But, just a tiny quiet hint, there are other forums here for less than factual discussions…some of us, namely me, might not be interested in opinion, no matter how well reasoned. I expect I am in the vast majority in this feeling. :mad:
