some Mormon questions

Factual Questions
81

Here’s a fact, but no cites to back it up:

I was a very active member of the LDS church from the ages of 9 to 18. I participated in at least 4 baptism-for-the-dead temple ceremonies in my youth. I was interviewed by my bishop for temple reccomends and for advancement in the priesthood, including the Melchezidek priesthood. I do not recall group sessions with the bishop, they were all done in private in the bishop’s office. I was asked during at least 3 interviews point blank: “Are you morraly clean” and “Do you have a problem with masturbation ?” This was between 1976 and 1982. I answered no and felt the same guilt that Big-Ole-Steve expressed. I also need to state that thes interviews were with 3 different bishops, there was no leering or probing for details. All the bishops I dealt with were successful, middle-aged, stable family men and appeared to take their religion and spirituality very seriously.

82

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Monty *
[B)Why would you be frustrated by that?

Talk about ignorance! For one thing, the missionaries don’t “barely know their Bible.” They know the Bible, along with the other Standard Works of the Church. For another, they are taught very much about the culture and the language (for areas that are not English-speaking) where they will be sent. Here is a description of the training regimen. Part of that description is (underlining and bolding mine): **

Oh come on Monty - eight weeks is enough to give you good cultural and language understanding! Have you never lived in another culture? And in my experience those 18 year olds who come to my door know very little about the less literal parts of the bible - let alone life!

83

Just wanted to throw in that, back when I was a member, I was also asked if I masturbated, on several occasions. But then, our bishop handled things very maturely ('twas a doctor)… he was the same guy that got the youth in the ward together for sex-ed. A very open and honest individual.

84

It’s good for a beginning, especially when the instruction is intensive. And the instruction continues while they are posted in their mission field.

Yes, I have. I’m retired from the US Armed Forces and I’ve lived in Germany and Japan. Prior to joining the military, I lived in South Korea. Being exposed to another culture on a daily basis is good education for those with an open mind.

So, you admit to being incredibly ignorant as you are basing your entire opinion on a sampling of one pair.

85

I do not dispute that as a youth in classes with teachers we were taught (and do teach) that masturbation, petting, oral sex, fornication, adultry, sodomy, and beastiality were sexual sins.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jack@ss *
**“Are you morraly clean” ** I have been asked this as well and do not see what is offensive about the question. Particularly since it is one of a dozen or so questions used to determine if you are trying to live the teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I’d be nitpicking to point out that this is not asking, “Do you masturbate.”, wouldn’t I? As I’ve said before the questions with regards to sexual purity/activity that I have been asked are in such general terms as, “Are you morally clean?” and that question was asked when I was in the youth program.
And here’s a fact with no cites to back it up:
Folks, Bishops and Stake Presidents are instructed *in writing[i/] not to inquire about personal intimate matters and not to stray from the recommend interview questions in the manual. Furthermore if during the visit the person being interviewed questions or expresses concern about a specific behavior in their personal intimate life, the interviewer is instructed not to pursue the matter and to gently suggest that if the behavior is causing anxiety, that a wise course of action would be to stop it. (Sound reasoning and advise in my opinion. If what you are doing is causing anxiety or pain, stop. It applys to many things, not just LDS temple worthiness interviews.) The letter (which I have read in the manual in the Bishops office) goes on to explain that a perceptive, understanding (I don’t remember the specific word) interviewer will be able to guide the person being interviewed away from asking explicit questions.

On my honor, the temple recommend questions that are in the manual from the leadership of the Church (The First Presidency) do not include a question as explicit as “Do you masturbate?” It asks if you are chaste. I would get up and leave the room if I was asked such an explicit question.

(And in fact, I spoke to my son tonight based on y’alls assurances that you were asked such a thing and told him that he should not answer such an explicit question. He has my full support to get up and walk out of the interview. He said he’s been asked if he’s “morally clean”. Which I do not feel is inappropriate.)

Abb

86

I’m not saying you are like this, but in my experience, Americans in the armed forces living overseas have limited experience in the host culture.
I would hardly call being a Mormon open-minded (if indeed you are referring to yourself) - don’t you approach the culture as wrong from the outset - see my original statement of cultural and religious imperialism.
Where did you get “one pair” from? I would guess I’ve had at least 30 visits over the years -and not only in my current country of residence.
You are very quick to call people ignorant - perhaps this is something you fear in yourself?

87

The vast majority of the Mormons I know are open-minded.

Ignorance in anyone, including me and including you, is something I dislike. So you’re basing your opinion on 30 or so people out of how many thousands? (Here’s a hint for you: there are over eleven million LDS, and IIRC, it’s over 50% now outside of the US. I could be wrong on that though.) At any rate, I think you’re zeroing on one thing and one thing only and basing the rest of your appraisal of the missionaries on that.

We don’t approach the culture as wrong. Our missionaries approach the people with a view of a religion we think is important. You, on the other hand, have reinforced my opinion of your ignorance with your comment about being Mormon not being open-minded. Seems to me like you’ve just dismissed our culture out-of-hand.

As for Americans in the Armed Forces overseas: a lot stay on base safely ensconced in “Life Inside the American Fence” [sup]1[/sup] and a lot go out and learn, appreciate, and enjoy the host culture. For very many of the LDS Servicemembers, it would be quite a trick to both stay active in the Church and to not leave the base as the ward or branch meets in a local LDS chapel off-base.

[sup]1[/sup]My own sort-of loose translation of the title of a Japanese book, ISBN4-914938-17-0. The book describes the American military establishment in today’s Japan.

88

Explain what you mean by “open-minded” - I think we have a difference of definition here.
My original comments on 18 year olds coming to my door with very limited knowledge are, ofcourse, based on the 30 odd 18 - 20 years old mormons that have come to my door (I’m not talking about any other mormon age group or other mormons who don’t come to my door).
If you are coming into a culture expressly to convert them to your way of thinking (because you think it is a brilliant thing to believe), what else is this but a belief that the culture is wrong/misled/misinformed/unconscious in their religious beliefs that have been developed over hundreds of years?

89

Ok, I have been run off this thread.

I had some questions about facts and figures, but even after numerous people have complained, some of you wankers can’t get the message.

Thanks. My questions are unanswered and my pants in a twist.

Cheers, and may it happen to you three times!

90

There’s more to a culture than just the religion, Mel.

frookah: Your question was answered–more than once and by more than one person. Also, your use of the term wanker is uncalled for.

91

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by frookah *
Ok, I have been run off this thread.

I had some questions about facts and figures, but even after numerous people have complained, some of you wankers can’t get the message.

Thanks. My questions are unanswered and my pants in a twist.

Cheers, and may it happen to you three times!**

frookah I only see one question from you in the thread.

And it has been answered:

I’m terribly sorry you feel your questions have been ignored, but I feel the ones I see are answered and do not see any other from you. I would be happy to address them.

Abb

92

Actually thinking about it, no, that wouldn’t exactly be nit-picking on your part…And I think that in fairness to the discussion I should point out that when I said they asked “Do you masturbate” that the question was indeed said “Do you have a problem with masturbation.” I appologize for the discrepnency, and hope that I wasn’t restating the question in order to make it more brash, but rather due to the fact that I would have found either question equally invasive at the time, and equally guilt causing in that I felt the need to lie to the bishop on this matter.

That’s wonderful. I honestly wish my parents had given me such freedom of self expression when faced with “The Bishop!” and I applaud you for doing that. And I honestly hope that the church has turned away from being so abrupt with the subject, and that your son never goes through what I went through. And I agree…asking a person if they are “morally clean” in regards to sexual chastity are not, IMHO, inappropriate, but perhaps the factual discussion of what does or does not happen in the interview is now over, and me injecting my own feelings on the topic are inappropriate in this forum.

For the record, Abby, I’m sorry if you felt like I was attacking you or the church…this was never my purpose. I have read time and again the SD threads on mormonism, and always pay special attention to your posts, because they are always insightful, not appologetic, and honest about both what actually happens in the church, and your feelings on the issues, and I respect you immensely for that. I do not INTEND to be a basher of the church, as that church is full of people who I love to no end, good people, with love in their hearts that I envy. And I furthermore love the President, even if I don’t see him as a Prophet as much as a very kind, loving and wise and incredibly respectable man.

My only nit to pick was to point out that my experience was different from yours, and that, given the choice, I find your experience wholly more desirable.

Sorry if this felt like a “He Said/She Said” at-odds debate, as that was NOT my intention getting into this.

Steve

93

It seems to this Non-LDS person that there is a need to post the accurate quotes for the Questions being discussed. I hereby offer direct quote of the questions, and the setting and situations in which the questions are duly and regularly asked of LDS Members and potential members.

I found it in a Google search.

**

I hope that this cite and quote assists in the clear understanding of what is asked, and when, and in what environment. Were I to wish to pursue such a course in my life, it would be because I was seriously and fully accepting of the entire teaching of the LDS faith. None of the questions listed here would seem offensive or too personal. I would be doing so because I felt the desire/need to make a committment , and forge a bond. One does not make such committments lightly, and I for one would not find these questions to be out of place at all.

Cartooniverse

94

Oh, and on another question raised in here. Again, speaking as an outsider- as far as I am aware, there is not a single LDS member or Church official who would deny a firefighter access to a burning Temple or Church on the grounds that they were not members of the Church already.

One of the most admirable things about the faith, to me, is the attention paid and energy expended on practical healthy life matters. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say it’s simply not so.

In an emergency, the proper personnel would be allowed in immediately to perform their tasks without a single impedement, yes?

95

Sorry I missed this earlier. I also live in an area with great youth leadership. Our kids have had sex ed at church as well as at school, as well as (speaking for myself) at home.

Obviously within the church isex ed is approached from the perspective that abstinence is best before marriage. But it went beyond that, it was an informative session.To be honest, I felt mildly embarrassed within myself at how much I learned when previewing the presentations. It’s been a couple of years, I should look into seeing if we ought to do it again.

** Big-Ole-Steve ** Thanks. I wasn’t trying to be contentious either. I just felt alarmed that folks would think that everyone who wanted a temple recommend was being asked those explicit questions. And what y’all were posting was so out of line with my own experiences, I was feeling defensive. I apologize.

Either way the question was presented to you, I probably would have balked. That said, there is a difference in my mind between asking if someone does something or asking if they have a problem.

I too feel President Hinkley is an incredible man. I particularly appreciate and enjoy his warmth and sincerity. The comfortable manner in which he teaches and testifies, I equate with a loving grandfather sharing a warm message, instead of stodgy “official church leadership”. I absolutely adore his sense of humor. He can make fun without doing it at the expense of anyones dignity.

Cartooniverse The questions you’ve posted are the Temple recommend interview questions that I am familiar with. However, they are not asked of an investigating or prospective member. The questions you’ve posted above are to obtain a recommend to participate in the more serious and sacred ordinances and covenants that take place in the temple.

If they are seriously considering joining the church, prospective members are asked to pray and read the scriptures daily with particular attention to the Book of Mormon. Additionally they are asked to begin living an LDS lifestyle. This means trying to live a Christ like life all the time; abstaining from harmful substances, including tobacco, alcohol, coffee, tea, and drugs or other addictive substances; attending Church meetings; starting to pay a full tithe; and living a moral and chaste life. (Living a chaste life does not mean living without sexual activity, it means keeping the sexual activity within the bonds of marriage.)

There is a brief interview customarily conducted by a Church representative prior to baptism, but it is to verify the prospective members willingness and worthiness to enter into the baptismal covenant. For us baptism isn’t just an act of membership in a church, it’s covenant between us and God. Additionally, folks are asked if they have a testimony of the basic doctrines of the Church, such as Jesus is the Christ, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and the the Book of Mormon scripture that testifies of Christ. Finally they are asked if they try to keep (and will continue to keep) God’s commandments.

I had not been in the church since birth, we were introduced to the church through missionaries. I was eight turning nine and I remember being asked if I understood what those things meant. I remember him specifically asking me if I was joining just because my mother was. (Part of our family joined and part did not.) Years later when my son was interviewed, he recalls being asked if he understood as well. His father is not a member of the church and had to provide written permission for the baptisim to take place.

With regards to the questions about firefighters. You’re quite right, of course they are not barred. If a building is damaged it has to be repaired and/or rebuilt and rededicated. In fact On July 9 this summer the temple in Apia, Samoa did catch fire and as you can see firefighters were called to the scene to battle the flames. The temple was already undergoing some renovations at the time of the fire. Finally, the construction workers who build and rennovate temples don’t have to be members. Temples are dedicated or re-dedicated when built or renovated after an open house period where local people can tour the building.

96

Absolutely, couldn’t agree with you more - pretty basic sociology - religious beliefs and culture cannot be separated. Western cultural beliefs, values and ethics are heavily influenced by Christianity but you don’t need to be a christian to have them.
What point were you trying to make?

97

First, let me assure you that I will comply.

However, I did not rant. I stated facts, and I stated them with all the necessary qualifiers that made it clear that I did not claim, nor do I believe, that what I said was universally true or even particularly widespread within the LDS Church. I am well aware this is not GD and so I reported nothing but facts that were reported to me by sincere, honest, practicing Mormons, who by and large are wonderful people.

I was falsely accused of stating falsehoods and I was insulted, and I responded to those allegations and insult, although admittedly without perfect detachment. For this, I apologize.

Finally, contrary to subsequent false assertions, I neither voiced nor feel any hatred towards the LDS Church. All of my posts here have been based on facts and factual reports, and there is no question that not all of my respondents can say the same. They, however, received no intervention from any moderator.

98

You falsely stated that the purpose of the temple recommend interview was for the purpose of gratification. Even non-LDS posters in this thread have demonstrated to you that such assertion is false.

99

I want to respond to Mel’s point about missionaries not knowing the Bible very well. I think often this is true. We have a Seminary program for high-school age kids, which is supposed to give them a grounding in the scriptures. Most missionaries you encounter will probably have graduated from Seminary. (Graduating isn’t hard, though–basically all you have to do is show up). I have known a few missionaries who were excellent scriptorians, but often this is not the case. One excuse is that we have four books to study instead of just one, so there’s more to learn.

I think part of it has to do with emphasizing different scriptures and interpreting things different ways. Any missionary will have at least a few Bible verses ready at hand, but maybe not the same ones that you know. But we try to avoid “Bible bashing,” anyway, since it just leads to arguing and that never does anyone any good. The point is to teach by the spirit and let the spirit testify of truth. I don’t think anyone was ever argued into a religion. It’s a testimony to me that, even with these awkward young barely-out-of-high-school guys who often don’t know the scriptures as well as they probably should, people still join the church anyway.

I served a mission in Korea (Taejon) about ten years ago, and I know that the few people I helped teach and baptize were not converted because of me. Missionaries don’t convert people, the spirit converts people.

100

Helena - I was specifically naming 18 year old mormons actually, no other missionaries. I had some missionary friends in Japan who knew their bible inside out. I think my point is the cultural and religious arrogance of sending 18 year olds to other countries to convert and the combination of them not knowing the bible and the culture is my point. However, I guess this type of cultural and religious imperialism really refers to all missionaries, not just the 18 year mormons. This doesn’t and hasn’t stopped me meeting very nice people who are missionaries, some of whom I have become good friends with.