Some questions about guns

Some day before we die, we have to find a way to go shooting together. Don’t get me wrong - I like the people at the club I belong to. But 95% of the people there don’t get past the “guns are fun” stage let alone the finer part of semantics.

Right now manufacturing for the panic buying by the “they are going to take our guns” crowd has thrown the stats off somewhat so good science is tough to come by. If we set aside the so-called assault and combat firearms the production and sales of more specialized hunting actions is probably growing slightly in longarms and shrinking slightly in handguns; about the reverse of what it was in say 1980. I would write that off to the normal fluctuations, so to speak, or “glut in the market”. So many (hunting handguns) were made at that time that the secondary market can fill the need for now. But that is just for now. As new ammunition is developed and older guns wear or are retired, that will probably change again.

Looking at just today’s production in these discussions is “seeing the tree but not the forest”. Remember we’re talking something that will last for multiple decades if not centuries. Trends in the secondary market have to be considered and have often been a good predictor of what makers will offer in the future. That needs to be entered into the equation as well. Look for more specialized target and hunting pistols to be the big thing in another 5-10 years; especially in the Republicans win for POTUS the next two cycles. If we Democrats win, say 10-15 years.

The bolding is mine because I’m not really sure what you mean there. And I wonder if you are trying a slight woosh on that TVland thing. I’m hitting it in depth because its one of those things that reads as being “right” until you really break it down.

Television did not invent the lever action pistol; Volcanic Arms really gets the bigger part of that credit along with credit for other developments later duplicated in rifles. In fact, the evidence from Hunt that survives indicates that the pistol came clearly first and the rifle followed. One could argue that the pistol was first because it was easier/smaller to make and still provided a test platform for the concept but you may not win that one since it doesn’t hold true for most other action types. The Volcanic is the most famous of the made-lever action pistols but its far from being the only one.

Now getting to the Steve McQueen TV thing for the more “cut-down-looking” pistols; I’ve heard that claim before but more from writers than people who shoot or collect firearms. Originals/antiques of various kinds of lever action pistols are rare but not unknown. In ones that look like Steve’s, some were actually made as handguns but most were indeed cut down rifles. Were they cut down simply for concealment or was it some throwback to the need Volcanic Arms saw in the first place? Without finding something in writing from a gunsmith who made one or the customer who ordered it we will never know for sure. But the TV show clearly was copying something that existed in some numbers rather than inventing something on its own.

But surely the TV show comes into play with its large following and popularity today, right? Sorry - wrong again. The various forms of Cowboy Action Shooting as a sport and hobby did that. Plus, like short side-by-side shotguns, they just look cool as Hell. Both Steve and the show are forgotten for the most part by the vast majority of the people purchasing the things. Where we do have to give them some small credit, I believe, is in the name “mare’s leg” but even that is hard - but we can at least say they made the name somewhat popular.

The fun part of the argument becomes: just how common were pistols made from shortened lever action rifles prior to the 1968 GCA - way back when that show was being made? Just what would a “census survey” show compared to other purpose-made pistols like the SSA? That we may never know but they were common enough to be a standard offering in some of the firearms catalogs. So while they are considered rare now that doesn’t always seem to have been the case. But one place where everyone does agree; that look has never been as popular or as common as it is today.

Now – this is where your “need to be” confuses me. If I am reading you right (and that is far from a certainty), its not so much that they “need” to be pistols so much as they “are” pistols. Just like any modern-made cartridge-using handgun. So I guess I’m missing your point. What it looks like doesn’t enter into the question, just what it is.

But let me assume its the “started as a rifle” part that you are thinking of. Lets say I am a licensed manufacturer of firearms. Not just a basic gunsmith but a confirmed and certified maker. Maybe not a Remington but something more along the lines of an Interarms or such. I get a fantastic deal on 50,000 identical lever action rifles and I want to turn them into pistols. Those will need the $200 tax and restrictions as a (to use the vernacular) class three weapon, right? Not really. If I have the right licenses in place to manufacture pistols, to create one from scratch, I can argue (and win) that I have the right to use existing firearms from another maker to create those pistols. It usually doesn’t make fiscal sense but its fine from the legal side.

Everyone I knew* (including me) kept one in the chamber, so there was no need to cock the gun to load the chamber.

*Jacksonville, Florida. It’s gun mecca down there!

There is at some point. :wink:

If I might piggy-back a few questions onto this thread:

Is there a term specifically for a handgun that’s not a revolver, the sort with the magazine in the grip? I hear them referred to as “semi-automatic”, but that seems ambiguous since it also describes one shot per trigger pull.

The whole “double-action”/“single-action” thing drives me nuts, too. If you have to do two actions (cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger), that’s a “single-action”. If you can fire the gun with a single action, that’s a “double-action”. But at least it’s not ambiguous.

What’s the specific distinction between a machine gun and a cannon in this case; is something over a certain caliber considered a cannon, does a cannon have a non-rifled barrel, or is it something else?

A .38 isn’t .38, what does the .38 refer to then? Is a .380 .380?

I’ve been told that’s a pistol. So revolvers and pistols are both handguns.

no, because it’s also applied to semi-automatic rifles (e.g. the AR-15, Ruger Mini-14, etc.) and shotguns (Remingon 1187, etc.) “Semi-automatic” should really be called “auto-loading.” they chamber the next round automatically but do not fire it until the trigger is released and then pulled again.

it refers to how many “actions” the trigger does. “single-action” = trigger only drops the hammer. “double action”= trigger raises, then drops the hammer.

no. .38 special, .357 Magnum, .380 Auto, .357 SIG, and 9mm all use a .357 caliber bullet. The reason .38 was called .38 is in the very beginning the round used a “heeled” bullet like .22LR (like so; the bullet was the same diameter as the case with only a rebated “heel” crimped into the case. This bullet was actually 0.38" in diameter. once it changed to a non-heeled bullet (bullet pressed into the case) it was reduced to 0.357" but kept the name .38. it’s why a revolver/rifle chambered for .357 Magnum can usually also fire .38 Spl.

I get that, but it still seems backwards to me.

There are lots of fields of human activity that have arcane knowledge that would boggle the non-initiated. Old cars and guitars are two that I’m just passingly familiar with. I think guns may have them all beat, though.

They’re generally referred to as semi-automatic handguns. On gun forums, I have seen them categorized as “auto-loading handguns”, which makes sense, though I haven’t seen that term used much.

The term technically refers to whether the gun has a single-action or a double-action trigger. The distinction you are making is not correct in general: many guns with single action triggers can be fired with just one action on the part of the user - pulling the trigger - because the hammer is cocked automatically when a round is chambered.

Cartridge and bullet design involves much more than just one number. The term people use to refer the cartridge is best thought of as just the name of the cartridge, not an engineering measurement of some specific dimension. It does generally correspond to the outer diameter of the bullet, in inches, but as you noted this is not always exact. The choice of the cartridge name (e.g. .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .380 Auto, etc.) is largely up to whoever invented it and/or first marketed it.

Here, for instance, is a diagram of the important dimensions of the 9mm Luger cartridge, now the NATO standard handgun cartridge.

The Uzi, to give a famous example, is open-bolt.

Generally an autocannon is classified as having a caliber over 20 mm and the ability to fire explosive shells, which makes them more effective against aircraft and lightly armoured vehicles.

I am speaking of recent history, but nothing to do with gross numbers of sales in the last 7 years. Not percentage some design has as a function of total sales but of number of models in production, something like that. Someone probably still makes a pump rifle, but the popularity of the design has decreased considerably.

You specifically mentioned the mare’s leg, and I was responding to that, ot to levers in general. Certainly short barrel levers existed beforehand, but that model, which is a cut down Winchester 1892, especially with an oversize lever, is popularized from that TV show.

I mean that while someone may wish to make their own NFA-compliant SBRs, that is a niche market at best. It is much more lucrative to create a legal pistol that uses a rifle caliber. Functionally, there is little difference, but not where the law is concerned.

Rule of cool?

Not sure what you mean here. A reference to United States v. Thompson-Center Arms Co.?

Okay, just to show how much it makes sense: three nominal calibers for popular military rounds: .303, .30-06, and .308. The actual diameter of the bullets used is: .311, .308 and .308, respectively. Or 9x19mm (the common 9mm) vs. 9x18mm. By the names, the only difference should be 1mm in length. Bullet diameters are actually 9.01mm and 9.27mm (the Parabellum cartridge has a slight taper).

.38 Special has different bullets than .380. The former is slightly larger, by about .002". (I think the latter uses the same bullet as 9x19mm, with possible lower range of weights because the cartridge is less powerful?).

For some calibers, you can buy different size bullets. Due to variances/wear on the rifling, one specific gun may “prefer” a bullet that is 0.001" larger than an otherwise identical firearm prefers.

This is one somewhat common interpretation of the terminology, in others (more common I think), pistol = handgun, and by using the former without context you may risk ambiguity.

My friends were really into guns some three decades ago. We got a sealed case of WWI vintage ammo, metal lined, etc. How it was stored it unknown, but the case and seals were intact.

About one round in 20 had a issue, one or two in the entire case fired but didn’t clear the barrel- which can be VERY bad.

So, I’d say that ammo that is more than 70 years old is somewhat problematic, and could be unsafe.

Oh, I figured as much. Two cartridges for the same caliber could be different lengths, for a start.

They really do spec out the whole thing, don’t they? I wouldn’t necessarily have thought to spec out the angles (beta and delta in the diagram) but if you’re gonna go to all the trouble to design something, you might as well get it right.

I didn’t realize casings could be tapered like that; from 9.65mm to 9.93mm. Is that common? (That thelurkinghorror mentions it as an outlier makes me think it’s not.)

So, what exactly catches the cartridge and prevents it from sliding too far into the chamber? I always figured it was the rim at the base of the casing, but in that 9mm diagram the rim is only .03mm larger diameter than the casing ahead of the groove (or whatever that’s called). Is that enough, or does the chamber catch the lip where the casing meets the bullet (H2 to G1 in the diagram)?

Is there something special about the action, chamber, or barrel that makes them compatible with explosive shells, or do they just not make exploding shells under 20mm?

Judging by what’s used today, it seems that cannons turned out to be superior, but that doesn’t seem to have been settled until after WWII, since the F-86 (early versions, at least) used machine guns.

No, just one of the more common examples. Straight walled semiauto rounds and some bottlenecked rounds may be tapered. A quick looks like it might be more common than not, so things like .45 ACP are exceptions in being very straight.

You’re on the right track. 9mm is a rimless cartridge. It headspaces on the case mouth. Revolver cartridges have rims. They headspace on the rim. Revolvers are therefore more tolerant of varying case lengths (within a range) because the distance to the primer is always constant. Same with .22 rounds (which can be shot in both semi and revolver, not to mention rifles). A .22 LR may shoot .22 Long and .22 Short (but may not feed them properly unless a tube magazine).

Interesting stuff, thanks (and to everyone else who answered my questions, too).

“Headspace” (and what it describes) seems like a useful word to know (but I’ve gotten by without it for this long, so who knows).

It’s the size, mostly. Smaller rounds can’t fit much in the way of ordnance and at some point solid rounds will perform better since it doesn’t do much good to shoot firecrackers at enemy vehicles. There has also been strict regulation pretty much from the start against using explosive machine gun rounds in an anti-personnel role, which made them less available to develop for aerial warfare. And by the end of the Second world war the United States were pretty much the only ones still fitting fighters with smaller calibers exclusively, so I’d say the effectiveness of autocannons had been quite well established by that point.

I’ll take a mulligan on that one. What I mentioned was lever action pistols; the link I used as a photographic example called it a mares-leg. So I can see where you are confused.

I was speaking of a finished arm and not a kit - also converting a rifle to a pistol and not the other way around. I would have thought that much was obvious. Please don’t read into my posts – just reading them is usually enough of a chore. :smiley:

The TC case is interesting in another light though: stocking a pistol or at the very least turning an existing pistol into a sort of rifle; different topic altogether and a very confusing one at that it is still worth discussing. The fear of the ATF was that people would use that as a way to get around the basic background checks. I have the pistol and I want to sell it without doing the paperwork; I buy the kit and instant rifle needing no transfer - right? Not really. The frame will still need a transfer and background check. The court found basically in favor of TC (but not as much as Wiki implies) and besides, they did find another way around that whole thing as well.

But it does illustrate the central point I made; makers/manufacturers can do things gunsmiths go to jail for.

Overall I’ll call it a B+ reply :smiley:

Let me start off by apologizing for not quoting the comments up thread that I want to comment on here. I’ll try to start off each of my comments by saying something to clue you in.

  1. Cocking a pistol: Okay, first of all, you don’t cock a pistol, you cock the hammer. “Cocking” is what happens to the hammer of a pistol (hopefully JUST) before you fire it. Operating the slide of an auto-loading pistol to chamber a round is NOT considered cocking a pistol, even though the hammer will be cocked on most auto-loaders after you chamber a round.

  2. Single/Double action: This depends, sort of, if you’re shooting a revolver or a auto-loader. With a revolver, some only work single action. This means you have to manually bring the hammer back with your thumb. Besides cocking the hammer, this action also causes the cylinder to rotate to position a new round under the firing pin. For double action revolvers, most of the trigger pull pushes the hammer back into cock and rotates the cylinder. The last little bit of the pull release the trigger. With a DA pistol, you can also manually cock the hammer. You don’t need to apply as much force on the trigger to fire SA as you do DA.

With auto-loaders, things are somewhat different. SA and DA (I’m not talking about DAO aka double action only here) only apply to the first round fired. If you HAVE to manually cock the hammer to fire the first round, it’s SA. If you can either manually cock the hammer or squeeze the trigger to cock and then fire the first round, it’s DA. Here’s the thing, after you fire the first round, the auto-loading stuff will, besides reloading the pistol, recock the hammer. So, after the first round, it’s all pre-cocked single action. Some handgunners don’t like this, because the DA first trigger pull is much heavier than the subsequent SA trigger pulls. DAO was mostly developed for law enforcement types who resisted going to auto-loaders. They beefed about the different trigger pulls, so DAO has the same trigger pull for the first and subsequent rounds. Many DAO pistols also don’t have a hammer, or don’t have that tab you hook your thumb on to bring the hammer back.

Open bolt/closed bolt: When you shoot a gun, the barrel gets hot. Especially the chamber, where the round sits waiting to be fired. With a full auto firearm, it can get really hot after you shoot 25 or more rounds. Sometimes, it can get so hot that even if you release the trigger to stop firing, the heat of the chamber will “cook off” a round resting there. And then the auto-load feature kicks in and reloads another round into the too hot chamber that gets cooked off also. This continues until the magazine or belt is empty.

So, most full auto only or primary weapons are designed to “fire from an open bolt”. That is, when you release the trigger, the bolt goes back and stays there (ie, it’s “open”), there’s NO round in the chamber, and the chamber/barrel can cool a bit. Pulling the trigger releases the bolt which goes forward, strips a round off the magazine or belt, loads it into the chamber, fires the round, extracts the casing, and comes back to where it’s locked (unless you hold the trigger, and it just repeats) leaving the “bolt open”. Uzis, Browning .50s, Thompsons, Browning .30s fire from an open bolt.

Guns that fire from a closed bolt are at rest with a round in the chamber, the bolt forward, and the striker cocked. Squeeze the trigger, the round shoots, the empty case is ejected, the striker is recocked, and a new round is stripped off the magazine and loaded into the chamber. Auto-loading pistols, M-16 types, M-1 Garands, and most civilian auto-loading rifles work this way. Closed bolt is probably more accurate.

.357 mag/.38 special, .44 mag/.44 special, 9mm/.380, 10 mm/10mm lite/.40 S&W: The .357s, .38, and .44s are revolver rounds. They don’t “headspace”. They, if you will, “rimspace”. The diameters of the barrels, chambers in the cylinder, the bullet, and the case are the same. The rim keeps the round in the proper place in the cylinder. So, you can shoot the less powerful round in pistol designed for the more powerful round. You can’t do it the other way around. The more powerful round is longer than the lesser round, you probably couldn’t load the cylinder that way. Chances are, most shooters who own the magnums spend a lot more time at the range shooting the lesser rounds. Less wear and tear on the pistol, the wrists, and the wallet.

The 9mm, .380, 10mms, and .40s all headspace. A 9 and 380 are NOT interchangeable. You might be able to get a .380 into a 9mm pistol, but it probably won’t fire and you’ll have to poke the 380 out of the barrel with a cleaning rod. Now, it’s a bit different with the 10s. A 10mm is a pretty powerful load. I won’t go into all the detail, but back in the 80s after a few incidents, the FBI commissioned a study and a shoot-off to determine the BEST pistol round for law enforcement. They came up with the preliminary conclusion that the 10mm was the best tested, but was a bit too powerful for their model. So they had some people load 10mm rounds with lesser amounts of powder and had another shoot-off at some ballistic gelatin. And they fine tuned one load to meet their requirements and that became the 10mm lite. FBI approved. Same bullet, case, and primer as the full 10, just less powder. So either could be used in the 10mm auto-loading pistols the FBI ordered from Smith & Wesson. And someone at S & W looked at the 10 lite round, saw all that empty space in the case where powder used to be, and decided they could trim the case down and still fire the same bullet at the same velocity as the 10 lite. But it would be smaller. Small enough to shoot from a 9mm pistol with a different barrel and some minor adjustments to the magazine and bolt. So they called that new round a .40 and made up their line of .40 caliber auto-loaders. But you can’t shoot a .40 out of a 10mm pistol, cause the headspacing is way off.

I didn’t read all of the replies, but I’m glad that is been pointed out that shortening the barrel of a shotgun does not dramatically increase the spread of the pellets. It’s amazing to be that so many think that a shotgun is a “point in the general direction of the target and pull the trigger, you can’t miss.” Nothing can be father do the truth. Lady week I was shooting my Mossberg 500 20ga at paper from about 40’. Using #8 birdshot, the spread was only about 4 to 6 inches. One could easily miss a target if you don’t aim.