# Some questions about the western world **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958 "2013-06-02T17:36:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![General\_Bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e36b37/32.png) [@General\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/General_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/1 "2013-06-02T17:36:09Z")
Is there any way I can refuse to accept all the society-related stuff? _How can the government decide they have authority over me?_ Since I was born where I live, I never chose to live under their regime. Why can they use my body as their property? _Why can’t I go wherever I want?_ The Universal Declaration of Human Rights states: (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country. But nobody cares about this, apparently. _Why can countries claim land, but humans not?_ Where I live you can’t even dig in your own garden, you only own the top bit of land. Even the top bit isn’t actually yours, the state can take it from you at any point in time (and they don’t even have to pay you for it). There’s barely any unclaimed land in the world where I can just go and live freely, it’s all claimed by an ‘authority’ or deemed unclaimable. I have some more questions, but they might seem illogical to some. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/2 "2013-06-02T17:52:28Z")
From the level of your writing ability, I assume that you’re at least a high school graduate and probably a college graduate. Why did you wait until after you had conned society into educating you (as well as feeding you and clothing you) before you announced that you wanted to reject everything that society would give you or take from you? Do you mind society wiping your brain of everything it’s taught you before dumping you naked into an ocean just outside the limits of what your country claims as its borders? Do you mind it wiping your immune system at the same time so you’re no long immune to the childhood diseases you were vaccinated for? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/3 "2013-06-02T17:54:09Z")
Where do you live? That will help answer your questions. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a declaration of ideals. It has no force of law behind it. I find it a hard to believe you can’t dig in your own garden unless “your garden” is actually not your land. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/4 "2013-06-02T18:00:17Z")
Let’s move this over to Great Debates. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/5 "2013-06-02T18:08:23Z")
I smell the subtle scent of gold-fringed flags in this OP… ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/6 "2013-06-02T18:11:44Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I smell the subtle scent of gold-fringed flags in this OP… Does that mean we can’t answer his questions? ---
**Author:** ![General\_Bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e36b37/32.png) [@General\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/General_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/7 "2013-06-02T18:12:15Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > From the level of your writing ability, I assume that you’re at least a high school graduate and probably a college graduate. Why did you wait until after you had conned society into educating you (as well as feeding you and clothing you) before you announced that you wanted to reject everything that society would give you or take from you? Do you mind society wiping your brain of everything it’s taught you before dumping you naked into an ocean just outside the limits of what your country claims as its borders? Do you mind it wiping your immune system at the same time so you’re no long immune to the childhood diseases you were vaccinated for? Birth givers and the authorities are allowed to force an opinion onto you until you are an adult, and they make your decisions. Also, again, what choice did I have, I was born into society, it’s not like I can go anywhere else, right? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/8 "2013-06-02T18:18:58Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Does that mean we can’t answer his questions? No, but it’s not like a search on “sovereign citizen” (which term I’m pretty certain the OP already knows) wouldn’t answer those questions just as well without having to go through another thread about this absurd fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/9 "2013-06-02T18:26:44Z")
\*No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. \* ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/10 "2013-06-02T18:27:16Z")
> [@General\_Bean](#): > > . . . Why can’t I go wherever I want? . . . Where do you want to go that you can’t? A lot of property is privately owned by someone else. You can’t go into my apartment without an invitation. A lot of property is publicly owned, but privately administrated and secured. You can’t go into the office of the police chief, or the 82nd Airborne’s aircraft hangars, or the IRS computer room, etc. A lot of places are locked for safety: you can’t (legally) climb over the fence to the local electric power distributing station. You can’t walk on the railroad tracks. You can’t walk across the airport runway. Other than these, where are you excluded from going? ---
**Author:** ![Leipzig\_Jesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/0ea827/32.png) [@Leipzig\_Jesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leipzig_Jesus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/11 "2013-06-02T18:37:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Other than these, where are you excluded from going? Round here there’s only private property, so you can walk on the pavement, and a few public areas that are filled with tourists during the day. I think they mean that wherever they go, they are always subjected to some kind of authority. ---
**Author:** ![General\_Bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e36b37/32.png) [@General\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/General_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/12 "2013-06-02T18:41:13Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > No, but it’s not like a search on “sovereign citizen” (which term I’m pretty certain the OP already knows) wouldn’t answer those questions just as well without having to go through another thread about this absurd fantasy. Never heard of the term. ---
**Author:** ![General\_Bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e36b37/32.png) [@General\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/General_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/13 "2013-06-02T18:51:46Z")
Looked it up. First thing I get is an article on the FBI site, that pretty much states they are like a terrorist network and a threat to the public. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/14 "2013-06-02T19:02:54Z")
Can’t imagine where you looked but these were the first two results from Google. > **[Sovereign citizen movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement)** > > The sovereign citizen movement (also SovCit movement or SovCits) is a loose grouping of litigants, activists, tax protesters, financial scheme promoters, and conspiracy theorists who claim to be answerable only to their particular interpretations of the common law and believe that they are therefore not subject to any government statutes or proceedings, unless they consent to them. The movement, which appeared in the early 1970s, is American in origin and exists primarily in the United S The s... > **[Sovereign citizen](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen)** > > Sovereign citizens would accurately be described as the flat earthers of the legal world. They typically believe that there are two types of citizens: natural citizens and Fourteenth Amendment citizens. African Americans who hold sovereign... 5th result [http://www.sovereign-citizenship.net/home.html](http://www.sovereign-citizenship.net/home.html) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/15 "2013-06-02T19:05:33Z")
_How can the government decide they have authority over me?_ Because all human civilization is founded on the concept of the social contract, and modern governments in particular derive their authority from the consent of the governed; individuals disavow their right to practice certain liberties to the collective for the sake of the community. When your parents chose to give birth to you in the country where you now reside, they in effect agreed on your behalf (exercising their power of attorney over you, a minor child) that you would adhere to the laws of the land and be fully possessed of the rights and privileges such status entails. As an adult, if you don’t want to “live under their regime”, you’re free to leave and find a regime that’s more suited to you. Or you could try and start your own country and see how that works out for you. _Why can’t I go wherever I want?_ Who says you can’t? Unless you’re trespassing on someone else’s land or on government land that’s closed to the public, most countries allow people to go where they please. _Why can countries claim land, but humans not?_ Real property is a legal invention, not something that objectively exists. A state can claim land because it possesses the ability to back up that claim with military force. As an individual, when you purchase land, what you’re buying is a tenancy in fee simple - a promise from the state that they will use that same force to protect your exclusive right to inhabit that land and enjoy the fruits thereof. Much like any contract, it entails obligations such as taxation and respect of police authority - and if the state concludes it is in the best interests of the public that your tenancy be rescinded, they may do so. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/16 "2013-06-02T19:59:51Z")
Give the OP a break, he didn’t _ask_ to be born! But seriously, if he wants to thoroughly divorce himself from all social obligations/connections/influences, he should get a boat and go find an island somewhere. And once there, take a crate of roofies so he experiences total amnesia. Then he can live as nature intended, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/17 "2013-06-02T20:10:28Z")
The bottom line is who’s going to stop the government from taking your land and doing what it wants with your body? You can’t say you want the law to acknowledge and protect your rights while refusing to recognize the law’s authority over you in turn. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/18 "2013-06-02T20:45:32Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Can’t imagine where you looked but these were the first two results from Google. > [Sovereign citizen movement - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement) > [Sovereign citizen - RationalWiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen) > 5th result > [http://www.sovereign-citizenship.net/home.html](http://www.sovereign-citizenship.net/home.html) We’ve also discussed the concept here. A few threads on the topic: [Freeman on the Land - opting out of society](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=566087) [Sovereign citizen tests his theories in practice; is shocked by the results](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=666038) [Freemen on the land](http://senegoid.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=654192) **General Bean** , some of the questions you posed in your OP, such as: > [@the OP](#): > > Is there any way I can refuse to accept all the society-related stuff? > > How can the government decide they have authority over me? > Since I was born where I live, I never chose to live under their regime. Why can they use my body as their property? … are pretty much the questions that Freemen/Sovereign Citizens ask, as you’ll see from **runner pat** ’s links, and our prior discussions here.. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/19 "2013-06-02T20:58:41Z")
And even when you die, your loved ones (if any) can’t just dispose of your body any place they please. They can’t have a barbecue of your body parts or bury you in Times Square. Life’s a bitch. So is death. ---
**Author:** ![General\_Bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e36b37/32.png) [@General\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/General_Bean)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/20 "2013-06-02T21:18:03Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And even when you die, your loved ones (if any) can’t just dispose of your body any place they please. They can’t have a barbecue of your body parts or bury you in Times Square. Exactly, I worry about this all the time. Spoons: I’m just wondering how it is that modern society is so full of bullshit. I know there’s a few places where you can live in communes, where the only authority is your sanity, but those are usually filled with (wannabe) anarchists and the like. Also, on the topics you linked people seemed very ignorant. I suppose when you discuss things like this people think you are a threat to their way of living. I don’t care how everyone wants to live, if you want to have two children and a white picket fence, that’s great. But it should be possible to be a nomad if you wish, too. There are quite some nomads in Asia still, but the westernization is threatening their lifestyle. What makes the consumerist society we live in so much better than their world? At least they can take care of themselves if the government makes a mistake (not a rare thing). They don’t claim ground, or leave trash wherever they please. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958.md?page=2)