# Some questions about the western world **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958 "2013-06-02T17:36:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/41 "2013-06-03T09:11:31Z")
Has the OP checked out the tourist page for Somalia? I have a feeling he’ll love it there. ---
**Author:** ![Leipzig\_Jesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/0ea827/32.png) [@Leipzig\_Jesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leipzig_Jesus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/42 "2013-06-03T09:16:48Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Has the OP checked out the tourist page for Somalia? I have a feeling he’ll love it there. Somalia proves that most people are incapable of functioning on their own. I don’t think anyone with a sane mind would jump right into a pit of raging bulls, just because they don’t have a proper government. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/43 "2013-06-03T09:33:59Z")
> [@General\_Bean](#): > > I know there’s a few places where you can live in communes, where the only authority is your sanity, but those are usually filled with \*\*(wannabe) anarchists \*\*and the like. Emphasis added. Stop, stop, you’re _killing me_ here. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/44 "2013-06-03T09:41:07Z")
> [@Leipzig\_Jesus](#): > > Somalia proves that most people are incapable of functioning on their own. I don’t think anyone with a sane mind would jump right into a pit of raging bulls, just because they don’t have a proper government. I’m more of a Lockean than a Hobbesian. I feel that most people are sane and capable of collectively forming a rational society. The role of government is to allow the rational majority to restrain the irrational minority. ---
**Author:** ![Leipzig\_Jesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/0ea827/32.png) [@Leipzig\_Jesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leipzig_Jesus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/45 "2013-06-03T10:57:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m more of a Lockean than a Hobbesian. I feel that most people are sane and capable of collectively forming a rational society. The role of government is to allow the rational majority to restrain the irrational minority. Tell the Somalians. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/46 "2013-06-03T12:12:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m more of a Lockean than a Hobbesian. I feel that most people are sane and capable of collectively forming a rational society. The role of government is to allow the rational majority to restrain the irrational minority. Personally I feel that rationality is almost besides the point. Even with rational, well meaning people society falls apart when it grows beyond a tiny group without some external framework to define and enforce the rules; a government. Issues become too complex, knowledge of the people and the situation around you becomes too incomplete for a single person to handle very rapidly as a society grows. Nor can those well meaning people _know_ that the people around them are well meaning, when they know there’s no one but themselves to penalize them for not being so. Or to put it more simply; when you drop someone into a situation where they have no safety, no protection beyond their own strength, no rules they can appeal to, and no reason to trust most of the people they meet - then “rational” and “civilized” are _not_ the same thing. People who under _other_ circumstances would be perfectly reasonable will behave ruthlessly and selfishly because it’s every man for himself. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/47 "2013-06-03T12:22:52Z")
“You only own the top bit of land” obviously refers to laws that make underground mineral deposits be Public Goods that you need a franchise to dig up. That’s a common legal status anywhere there is a government in place. But expropriation without compensation of the surface land does however sound very different than what many of us are used to. No roadside camping rules, and the requirement that there be an actual house as your fixed domicile of record, does sound like the state seems to not be comfortable with nomads who Ro[a]m. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Or to put it more simply; when you drop someone into a situation where they have no safety, no protection beyond their own strength, no rules they can appeal to, and no reason to trust most of the people they meet - then “rational” and “civilized” are not the same thing. People who under other circumstances would be perfectly reasonable will behave ruthlessly and selfishly because it’s every man for himself. _“…and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.”_ ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/48 "2013-06-03T12:23:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > According to [RationalWiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land#History) it may well have actually _started_ in Canada. I don’t think that’s a good source; Montana had freemen with these ludicrous claims before [1996](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Freemen). ---
**Author:** ![Leipzig\_Jesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/0ea827/32.png) [@Leipzig\_Jesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leipzig_Jesus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/49 "2013-06-03T12:26:47Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > “You only own the top bit of land” obviously refers to laws that make underground mineral deposits be Public Goods that you need a franchise to dig up. That’s a common legal status anywhere there is a government in place. But expropriation without compensation of the surface land does however sound very different than what many of us are used to. In some countries you need a permit to dig anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/50 "2013-06-03T12:42:18Z")
> [@Leipzig\_Jesus](#): > > In some countries you need a permit to dig anywhere. It’s not about the permit to dig - you need those lots of places. It’s about keeping what you dig up without the government simply stepping in and taking it. And it’s part of the societal compact again - me digging a huge hole on my land may impact my neighbors - big enough hole, their houses fall down. A little bit of common sense is maybe required here. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/51 "2013-06-03T12:54:10Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > It’s not about the permit to dig - you need those lots of places. It’s about keeping what you dig up without the government simply stepping in and taking it. > > And it’s part of the societal compact again - me digging a huge hole on my land may impact my neighbors - big enough hole, their houses fall down. A little bit of common sense is maybe required here. Right – and we need a permit to dig anything deeper than a flower bed because of the same potential for undermining others’ property, and because there may be buried gas/electric/water lines running under the yard. Look, we can’t just do anything at all that we want where we want when we want to. Like the man said upthread, wrong century. The issue is how restrictive are the limitations – merely inconvenient, or opressive? ---
**Author:** ![Leipzig\_Jesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/0ea827/32.png) [@Leipzig\_Jesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leipzig_Jesus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/52 "2013-06-03T13:16:48Z")
In some countries you can’t keep anything you find in your garden, unless the state is not interested in it. If someone is insane enough to dig a hole in their garden, large enough to tip over buildings nearby, a law won’t stop them from doing it. I know people who are building a house and they need archeologists to be present when they dig. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/53 "2013-06-03T13:23:29Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > merely inconvenient, or opressive? Inconvenient IMO; the laws concerning property usage in most places are in-place to protect your neighbor’s investment in their property; although imminent domain laws in the US can sometimes be used very un-ethically, even then there is nearly always some compensation made even if it’s not always to market value or if the people didn’t want to sell and move for any value. > [@Leipzig Jesus](#): > > In some countries you can’t keep anything you find in your garden, unless the state is not interested in it > > \ > > I know people who are building a house and they need archeologists to be present when they dig. I’d be interested in seeing a cite on this. I don’t know of anything like this in the UK or US and haven’t heard of it anywhere outside of hard communist countries which are few and far between; if it’s of archaeological or historic value they might need to register the find, but people find hoards of Roman coins fairly regularly in the UK, and they usually get to keep them I thought. I know there are requirements to do an archaeological survey before large construction, but that’s to ensure priceless history (like Roman ruins in the UK that keep getting found in places like car parks) isn’t destroyed by bulldozers and usually just a tick-box exercise. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/54 "2013-06-03T14:09:19Z")
Wiki on Treasure Trove; > **[Treasure trove](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_trove#English_common_law)** > > A treasure trove is an amount of money or coin, gold, silver, plate, or bullion found hidden underground or in places such as cellars or attics, where the treasure seems old enough for it to be presumed that the true owner is dead and the heirs undiscoverable. An archaeological find of treasure trove is known as a hoard. The legal definition of what constitutes treasure trove and its treatment under law vary considerably from country to country, and from era to era. > The term is also often use... > [@](#): > > In the early 20th century, it became the practice of the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury to pay those finders who fully and promptly reported discoveries of treasure troves and handed them over to the proper authorities the full antiquarian value of objects which had been retained for national or other institutions such as museums. Objects not retained were returned to the finders. So no, you don’t get to keep stuff you find, if the State has an interest in it. But you do get a reward. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/55 "2013-06-03T14:27:14Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Wiki on Treasure Trove; > [Treasure trove - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_trove#English_common_law) > So no, you don’t get to keep stuff you find, if the State has an interest in it. But you do get a reward. You get full market value, if I understand what you posted. You find a trove of Roman coins, some museum gets the coins but you get paid their fair value. That’s not what I said before, I realize, but surely that’s still a fair outcome and a far cry from the OP who posited that if the state has an interest, you get nada, from stuff you might find in your garden? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/56 "2013-06-03T15:13:58Z")
Personally, I’m getting a little tired of claims along the lines of “in some countries, the government can shoot you for snoring too loud” or other exaggerea. Name the country, do some basic research, and I’m confident the claim is highly simplified and/or misleading. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/57 "2013-06-03T15:36:02Z")
On reflection, I’d like to change the spelling of the neologism above to “exaggerhea”, suggesting a portmanteau of exaggeration and diarrhea. Since google returns no results on this, I feel I can make a tentative claim to coinage, for a phrase defined as “a unchecked spew of exaggerated claims”. You read it here first. Make sure the OED spells my name right. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/58 "2013-06-03T16:08:35Z")
In some countries, you’re not allowed to make up new words. If you do, they take the words from you without compensation. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/59 "2013-06-03T17:17:51Z")
In other countries, new words make up you! ---
**Author:** ![Leipzig\_Jesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/0ea827/32.png) [@Leipzig\_Jesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leipzig_Jesus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958/60 "2013-06-03T17:29:21Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > I’d be interested in seeing a cite on this. I don’t know of anything like this in the UK or US and haven’t heard of it anywhere outside of hard communist countries which are few and far between; if it’s of archaeological or historic value they might need to register the find, but people find hoards of Roman coins fairly regularly in the UK, and they usually get to keep them I thought. I know there are requirements to do an archaeological survey before large construction, but that’s to ensure priceless history (like Roman ruins in the UK that keep getting found in places like car parks) isn’t destroyed by bulldozers and usually just a tick-box exercise. I could possibly find you a link to some info, but it’d be in Dutch. When you build a house in some places (the state has a vague idea of where they might find stuff in the ground) you are forced to hire archeologists that are supposed to be present during any digging you do (and are allowed to stop the process at any time for any amount of time if they wish). You have to pay them yourselves, and everything they find goes to the state. For other places you still need a permit, which usually includes getting a message in the newspaper asking whether everyone is fine with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-about-the-western-world/659958.md?page=4)