# Some questions for debate about Dunkirk (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 24, 2017, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025 "2017-07-24T12:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/41 "2017-07-27T07:28:09Z")
> [@MarcusF](#): > > 1. I’m not a real expert on railway carriages (!) but you are probably right. It was filmed on the Swanage Railway in Dorset and most of their coaches are from the late 40s/early 50s so later but not much later. Looking at pics of the carriages I think the interiors are on Swanage’s “[British Railways Mk 1 Tourist Standard Open](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourist_Standard_Open#/media/File:Mark_1_Tourist_Standard_Open.JPG)” which came into service in 1952. Though the Southern Railway (which in real life provided the bulk of the stock to move the returning troops) did have open carriages before the war. Interestingly – I was just reading on a British railway enthusiasts’ message board, a comment by someone who had seen the film, and was pointing out this anachronism – British Railways (i.e. post-1948) coaches of the preserved Swanage Railway, with characteristic moquette-covered seating from this, later-than-1940, period. I do gather that railway enthusiasts are particularly notorious for ferocious nitpicking over the tiniest of anachronistic or otherwise wrong, rail-related details in films: with film-makers thus tending to think and act along the lines of “the 99.5% of normal people seeing the film, won’t know or care; the tiny percentage of train nuts will always find something to gripe about – so to hell with them”. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/42 "2017-07-27T10:54:33Z")
Apparently one of the pilots that provided inspiration for Farrier was kiwi RAF pilot _[Al Deere](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Christopher_Deere)_, who crash landed a spitfire on a beach in Belgium, found a lift through the lines to Dunkirk, got hassled by the evacuating soldiers (“where the hell have you been?”), got on a boat across the channel, and was back flying sorties over Dunkirk the next day. In addition to the long deadstick glide, I had a moment in the ditching scene. I’m pretty sure that RAF pilots would open the canopy prior to ditching to prevent being trapped in the cockpit if the airframe warped after splashdown. They’d do the same for a crash landing, so they could get out fast in case of fire. As far as the movie - I was incredibly immersed for almost the entire film. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/43 "2017-07-27T14:02:30Z")
[Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHmpQqa1HFc&t=8s) is a nine minute film of the Dunkirk evacuation showing the routes used and a day by day accounting of the number of troops saved. There are three other pieces, all beginning with _Dunkirk Remembered:_ that focus on other aspects, the land war and the air war among them. I have read about Dynamo quite a bit and one thing I have not been able to settle is who crewed the Little Ships. Some sources say they were mostly comandeered by the Royal Navy and crewed by RN sailors. Others that, like in _Mrs. Miniver_, they were crewed mainly by their owners.\* I liked how Nolan straddled the line, showing Mr Dawson taking _Moonstone_ out from under the noses of the navy. \*When legend becomes fact, print the [legend](http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/1111863/Mrs-Miniver-Movie-Clip-Your-Destination-Is-Dunkirk.html). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/44 "2017-07-27T14:36:24Z")
Apparently it was some of each, some voluntarily and some by requisition - there wasn’t time for arguments. One owner/captain at Dunkirk was Charles Lightoller, previously the second officer of the _Titanic_, who notably refused to let men board some lifeboats. Some of the actual “little ships of Dunkirk” appeared in the film. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/45 "2017-07-28T18:24:31Z")
I thought the movie (IMAX) was OK but not great. The beached trawler thing was a stretch. Would small arms fire pierce a steel hull like that? It was steel, right? Whoever was shooting at it would have to have been on the beach and toward where the soldiers walked from. Any why would anyone waste ammo shooting at a hulk? On top of that, they would have had to been pretty close to be getting hits so near each other. Who in their right mind would try plugging holes with their fingers as the boat was sinking? The whole scene didn’t work for me. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2017, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/46 "2017-07-29T12:12:38Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Apparently it was some of each, some voluntarily and some by requisition - there wasn’t time for arguments. One owner/captain at Dunkirk was Charles Lightoller, previously the second officer of the _Titanic_, who notably refused to let men board some lifeboats. True. Some of the “citizen” histories mention boats whose owners could not be located being taken by the navy anyway. What I was wondering was what the percentages were, 90% citizens and 10% RN or vice versa. Since both versions are being offered, I’m having the impression the percentages were pretty much in the middle. Not having records, while understandable given the press of events, is frustrating. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it can be very different depending on where you are standing, from, “When the call came in we all jumped in our boats at midnight and started down river en masse,” in Twickenham to, “Those navy bastards took our boats without so much as a by-your-leave,” in Folkestone. (made-up quotes) Interesting factoid about Lightoller. He must have been one of the oldest skippers out there. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2017, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/47 "2017-07-29T12:55:44Z")
My admittedly spotty and casual research indicates that in some instances Royal Navy guys were piloting the boats across the channel but the civilian owners insisted on coming along as well, so there probably were at least a few boats with mixed groups, too. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/48 "2017-07-29T13:17:13Z")
Were the wounded really evacuated first from Dunkirk? If so, what was the reasoning behind it given that a) Everyone believed at the time that only 30,000 soldiers would be evacuated and b) it was noted in the film that one wounded man took up the space of 7 standing men. It seemed like every man on the beach was eager to give priority to the wounded but that doesn’t seem like very smart military strategy. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/49 "2017-07-30T13:13:40Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Were the wounded really evacuated first from Dunkirk? If so, what was the reasoning behind it given that a) Everyone believed at the time that only 30,000 soldiers would be evacuated and b) it was noted in the film that one wounded man took up the space of 7 standing men. It seemed like every man on the beach was eager to give priority to the wounded but that doesn’t seem like very smart military strategy. No answer, but three hypothetical explanations : 1. Evacuating wounded being typically a priority, they kept doing it “out of habit” until they decided that in these exceptional circumstances, the absolute priority was to evacuate as much people as possible, period. 2. They didn’t have the drugs, equipment, medical staff, buildings to actually take care of them, and they would die if they weren’t evacuated. So, they didn’t evacuate the wounded in general but those who wouldn’t make it if they weren’t transported to an hospital in relatively quick order. 3)A staffed hospital ship was sent, and they thought it would be a complete waste of ressource not to use it for its intended purpose. But the overwhelming majority of other ships didn’t take wounded soldiers on board. ETA : regarding the lack of depiction of French soldiers : it seemed to me at the contrary that the movie went out of its way to show or mention repeatedly that they were defending the perimeter. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/50 "2017-07-30T13:27:29Z")
In addition to the wounded, what was done with the dead? I assume they were left behind, so were they identified and individually buried? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/51 "2017-07-30T15:21:56Z")
If I recall, there was an early glimpse of gravestones on the beach, and of course “Gibson” burying the dead guy in the sand. There were probably at least temporary burials at Dunkirk itself. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/52 "2017-07-30T17:52:34Z")
From [here](https://www.leger.co.uk/blog/2017/07/18/10-facts-you-did-not-know-about-dunkirk/) > [@](#): > > As the British Army Retreated in May 1940, operational War Diaries and military papers were lost and destroyed. In the confusion of the retreat many soldiers got separated from their units, and when the final reckoning of casualties was made the War Office stated that 2,972 officers and 66,008 men were killed, wounded or missing from 10th May 1940 until the last day of evacuation in June 1940. This equated to about 1 in 3 of the BEF. The problem was that it was not known when many of these men died, or how many had actually died at Dunkirk. The cemeteries there have over 1,000 burials from the Dunkirk period, but many graves show dates of death as 10th May 1940 to a date in mid-June. So we will probably never know what the true cost of the ‘Miracle of Dunkirk’ was. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/53 "2017-07-30T23:34:05Z")
> [@StJoan](#): > > After he burns the Spitfire (where did he get the fuel to start the fire from?), he turns around and starts walking. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Flare gun. Yep. Aluminium really likes to oxidize. Iron, not so much, so I wondered where the engine had gone. All I saw was a long propeller shaft. :eek: The captain of the Moonstone remarked on the sound of the Spit’s Merlin engine. He should also have like the sound of the Bf-109s ([HA-1112-M1L Buchón](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano_Aviaci%C3%B3n_HA-1112)) and He-111s ([CASA 2.111](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CASA_2.111)). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/54 "2017-08-02T00:03:03Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > I thought the movie (IMAX) was OK but not great. That’s pretty much my feeling (but I didn’t see it in IMAX). I’m surprised to see some people calling this Nolan’s greatest movie. To me, this was one of Nolan’s weaker movies (although even a weak Nolan movie is still good). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/55 "2017-08-02T04:13:34Z")
Off the top of my head, I’d say _Memento, Inception_ and _Interstellar_ are all much better Nolan movies. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/56 "2017-08-02T12:18:58Z")
That’s what I told my brother after viewing. It’s not a _bad_ movie, it’s just not as good as his others. Nolan has set himself a high bar. Far better than Shyamalan who set a high bar with his third effort (_Sixth Sense_) then failed to clear it again. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/57 "2017-08-02T17:12:22Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Off the top of my head, I’d say _Memento, Inception_ and _Interstellar_ are all much better Nolan movies. Hmm, I liked Dunkirk better than at least 2 out of 3 of those, shrug. As far as whitewashing complaints, meh, I liked the microcosm approach, the visceral impact of these individual struggles to survive. A big sweeping epic trying to convey the scale of events should be expected take more care to balance history. Having said that, I agree with the comment up thread that there is probably an awesome POC at Dunkirk story out there, and I’d like to hear it. My question is about the first dogfight. The trailing spitfire radios to the lead, ‘on my mark, bank left.’ When the German follows, he waltzes right into the sights of the trailing spitfire, and I thought, ‘nice fucking move.’ But is it real? On paper, it’s a sound tactic, but is that based on after action reports, or is it just theater? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2017, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/58 "2017-08-03T11:41:56Z")
Just took the Wife out to see the film last night. Once we got our heads around the sequence of events we enjoyed it. Our major complaints: All the actors looked too much alike. Hard to tell them apart. Had difficulty following the dialogue often. And my biggest issue is that they failed to capture the scale of the situation. Instead of hundreds of private vessels in a flotilla to rescue tens of thousands of soldiers it felt more like a couple of hundred soldiers lining up on the beach waiting for a dozen or so boats. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/59 "2017-08-05T14:33:05Z")
Here’s a question. Why is Tom Hardy’s face covered for so much of his films (Batman, Mad Max, Dunkirk). > [@SanVito](#): > > 1. In [another thread on the film](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=831588), the question has been raised around the lack of people of colour in leading roles. Should this have been corrected - there’s no question there were a number of Indian regiments there on the beaches, for example. Or would this have felt tokenistic? Cuba Gooding Jr had a role as a black sailor in Pearl Harbor. Did that improve on the film at all? The “issue” of “whitwashing” in this case is overly politically correct nonsense. It is not necessary to present every historical drama as a “melting pot” unless it reflects the actual ethnic composition at the time or contributes to the overall story. Militaries of WWII were a lot less diverse and much more segregated than they are today. So unless you were telling a story about the experience of being one of the six black guys at Dunkik, the additional plot element would feel anachronistic, tokenistic and tacked on. > [@SanVito](#): > > 1. The French media are [apparently upset](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/0/french-soldiers-paris-film-critics-condemn-dunkirk-historical/) at the uneven tilt towards the British involvement in the film, calling it ‘witheringly impolite’. Do the French have a point? No. The resentment towards the French for surrendering to the Germans was historically accurate. > [@outlierrn](#): > > My question is about the first dogfight. The trailing spitfire radios to the lead, ‘on my mark, bank left.’ When the German follows, he waltzes right into the sights of the trailing spitfire, and I thought, ‘nice fucking move.’ But is it real? On paper, it’s a sound tactic, but is that based on after action reports, or is it just theater? Why wouldn’t it be real? Really the question I have is at what point do you break off from chasing a target when his wingman comes up behind you? Or do you? Because if the German disengages, then both planes can go on the offensive. Plus the German doesn’t know he’s flying into Tom Hardy’s sights. Or would you prefer they flew directly at each other and swerve at the last second like Ben Affleck and what’s his name in Pearl Harbor?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025/60 "2017-08-05T15:04:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Cuba Gooding Jr had a role as a black sailor in Pearl Harbor. Did that improve on the film at all? Gooding was playing a real person though: Doris Miller, a black man, who won the Navy Cross for his actions that day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-questions-for-debate-about-dunkirk-open-spoilers/792025.md?page=4)