# Some random thoughts about a Creator **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2007, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768 "2007-01-05T02:56:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/21 "2007-01-05T12:36:08Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] As a minor addition, don’t forget the constant infusion of energy the system receives from the sun, making sure everything is kept in flux. I get the impression thermodynamics isn’t a high priority to many creationists. [/QUOTE] Oh, but it is; they use it to argue against evolution, by misinterpeting it. The define Earth as a closed system, when it’s not, and talk about how order can’t increase in a closed system, while ignoring the fact that it _can_ increase locally; only a global increase is impossible. Even if Earth _was_ closed, which it isn’t. They either ignore the Sun’s contribution, and I’ve seen them try to deny that it “counts” when called on it. To quote a fundie on another forum : > [@](#): > > “One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex. That just isn’t possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it.” Amusingly, I found this post quoted in yet another forum, in a thread titled “Fundamentalist Christian almost discovers Sun”. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/22 "2007-01-05T12:41:57Z")
That title and text reads like an _Onion_ article (but it isn’t though, is it?) ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/23 "2007-01-05T13:00:18Z")
[QUOTE=Darwin’s Finch] But really, all this talk about ultimate origins does little to explain the here and now. Whether the universe popped into being on the whim of a supreme, omnipotent entity or whether it popped into being as a result of “the Big Bang”, it _still_ popped into being. And once it did, the laws of physics took care of the rest. [/QUOTE] Beautifully put. I have a real hard time with an omnimax God that created the universe and then had to continue adding and changing stuff around like sofas in a living room. If it was God who created the universe he must have created it via the Big Bang and the natural evolution that followed. Every minor detail pre-arranged from the one initial creation event. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/24 "2007-01-05T13:01:33Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Cool. All we need is a master search-and-replace macro changing all occurrences of “The Universe” to “God.” That should settle it once and for all. 😃 [/QUOTE] Please change it to “Gawd” so we can undo the change later on, if needed. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/25 "2007-01-05T13:25:22Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] This is one of the most interesting (to me, anyway) features of mainstream creationism - there’s a never-quite-explicitly-spoken, yet at the same time _terribly urgent_ impetus to _ **please, just stop trying to ‘find out’ and instead accept this or that potted explanation** _. Other than an underlying frantic realisation that _when we do find out, the answer probably won’t be what we would have liked_, I can’t think of an explanation (but I’m trying to find out). [/QUOTE] And at the same time, the creationists who say science has no place in faith will continue to try to use science (prayer experiments, etc) to prove that god exists. The mind boggles. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/26 "2007-01-05T13:38:20Z")
well, just because science has no place in faith that doesn’t mean you can’t have faith in science ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/27 "2007-01-05T15:27:24Z")
[QUOTE=Cegstar] How can people believe that there isn’t some kind of Creator (God). [/QUOTE] How can anyone believe that there is one? If there was one and only one creator of some sort, we would have known about it from day one and would not have invented thousands of different religions to fleece money from one another. But for the sake of argument, let’s assume that there is one, and he did the creation thing. Now what’s the situation? 1. He’s still actively involved. In which case, he ain’t worth praying to because he’s done a piss-poor job of managing his creation. 2. He started it and walked away (Deism, or the clock-winder theory). In which case, he ain’t worth praying to because he’s done an even more piss-poor job of managing his creation. 3. He started it and is just watching to see what happens. In which case, he ain’t worth praying to because he’s a fucking sadist. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/28 "2007-01-05T15:30:16Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] well, just because science has no place in faith that doesn’t mean you can’t have faith in science [/QUOTE] How would that benefit science though? Scientist 1: The results of the experimental trials on these new tires show that the tread may come off at high speeds Scientist 2: Nonsense, God will prevent it from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/29 "2007-01-05T15:34:18Z")
[QUOTE=Cegstar] How can people believe that there isn’t some kind of Creator (God). I mean, sure you can believe in evolution as much as you want to, but sure, organisms gradually evolved over billions of years to eventually become the organisms there are today. But how were those organisms created to evolve into more complex ones? [/QUOTE] I’m going to skip all the factual discussion - there are plenty of bright intelligent people here to do that - and ask how you think belief is so easy? Belief is in the heart. You could say I consciously chose to become an agnostic. However, there was no conscious thought in being an atheist. One day, I was particularly in touch with my mind and feelings, and just realized - I have no belief in me for any god. Further, I have no need of it. Belief IMO cannot be switched on and off. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/30 "2007-01-05T15:34:47Z")
[QUOTE=Cegstar] Thats pretty simple, no one created the creator. [/quote] I think the point **John Mace** was making is that when you substitute “universe” for “creator” the argument doesn’t change. > [@](#): > > Everything in the world we know needs and has a creator thats why it is such a hard concept to grasp. Ah, but the universe at its beginning, whatever that means, wasn’t anything like “the world we know.” > [@](#): > > You thinking the creator needs a creator means that time applys to him, that he needs a beginning. The assumption of a separate, uncreated creator for the universe is an act of faith. There is no reason whatever to postulate causes all the way down until an arbitrarty, uncaused creator is assumed. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/31 "2007-01-05T15:38:07Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Cool. All we need is a master search-and-replace macro changing all occurrences of “The Universe” to “God.” That should settle it once and for all. 😃 [/QUOTE] The owners of The Universe Bar & Grille have settled in small claims court with the Lord Almighty for inadvertently infringing on his trademark. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/32 "2007-01-05T16:08:34Z")
Just wanted to add that I find it amusing how people (such as the OP) conflate “creator” with “intelligent designer.” A riff I first heard from a local columnist Eric Zorn posits, even if we find a watch on the beach, why must we assume an intelligent designer? What if is was discarded as an incompetent design? Or the product of malevolent design? Or maybe a flawed preliminary design? … Just strikes me that affixing the adjective involves a second leap of faith (and no small amount of ego). ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/33 "2007-01-05T16:11:31Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] Just strikes me that affixing the adjective involves a second leap of faith ( **and no small amount of ego** ). [/QUOTE] Or no small amount of cheerful optimism… “Do you think the universe was intelligently designed?” “Well, I sure _hope_ so!” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/34 "2007-01-05T16:14:37Z")
I think when they say _intelligent_, they actually mean _sentient_, rather than _clever_ (although I’m sure the latter is also necessary for those who hold the intelligent designer to be the God of the Bible), but AFAIK, the term Intelligent designer is primarily meant to imply deliberation and consciousness as distinct from something like _design process_. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/35 "2007-01-05T16:19:58Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Oh, but it is; they use it to argue against evolution, by misinterpeting it. [/QUOTE] They interpret it just fine, thankyouverymuch. In a closed system, gases of various temperature will tend to average out to a mean temperature. Therefore, a loving and omniscient God. Honestly, do I have to explain _everything_ to you people? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/36 "2007-01-05T16:22:38Z")
The big bang also created time. It is a space /time continuum. No measuring sticks ,no up no down zippo. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/37 "2007-01-05T16:24:04Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] Just wanted to add that I find it amusing how people (such as the OP) conflate “creator” with “intelligent designer.” [/QUOTE] And the next leap is from “intelligent designer” to “Jesus loves me so.” Which is really the point – people that insist on a creator are really looking for proof that they are loved. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/38 "2007-01-05T16:24:34Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I think when they say _intelligent_, they actually mean _sentient_, rather than _clever_ (although I’m sure the latter is also necessary for those who hold the intelligent designer to be the God of the Bible), but AFAIK, the term Intelligent designer is primarily meant to imply deliberation and consciousness as distinct from something like _design process_. [/QUOTE] Well, then why don’t believers consider the possibility that the universe resulted from the creator’s “bodily functions?” I guess “God farted” might attract fewer followers… More seriously (but not all that much - as mythology rarely warrants complete sobriety), IME folks who refer to ID most often believe in some “purpose” or directionality of existence. Which to me suggests at least some intention OBO any creator/designer. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/39 "2007-01-05T16:25:34Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] The big bang also created time. It is a space /time continuum. No measuring sticks ,no up no down zippo. [/QUOTE] Must have been a bitch finding a parking spot. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768/40 "2007-01-05T16:52:49Z")
[QUOTE=Cegstar] Anyone share the same thought? [/QUOTE] Plenty of people (but far from everyone). I seem to recall reading that one of the most common reasons people give for believing in God is that, essentially, they look around at the world, see how intricate and amazing it is, and think “Somebody must have created/designed this; it couldn’t have just happened by accident.” But this is an emotional argument, not a logical one. And as an emotional argument, it’s not going to convince anyone who doesn’t already feel its force. As a logical argument, it can be countered, as people have already done in this thread. I suppose it’s conceivable that, with enough scientific sophistication, some sort of case could be made that the universe shows evidence of having been created. This, if I understand correctly, is what the Intelligent Design people are trying to do. But, at least at this point, their conclusions are controversial and almost universally discounted by mainstream science. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-random-thoughts-about-a-creator/386768.md?page=3)