# Some strapping young Ffellowes from Banff **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 6, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963 "2010-02-06T23:51:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/1 "2010-02-06T23:51:05Z")
No, it’s not a question about limericks. Rather, what I am wondering is the fossil double F in a number of place names and surnames of British extraction. Where did it come from, does it have a historical sound significance? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/2 "2010-02-07T00:46:48Z")
The **initial** double-f is an archaic form of the capital F. The name “ffoster” is just an old-fashioned form of “Foster”. I vaguely remember [someone else asking the same thing a while ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-421391.html). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/3 "2010-02-07T00:59:32Z")
Thanks, Kim – I probably ought to have remembered that thread. Anyone want to take a stab at Banff. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/4 "2010-02-07T01:11:34Z")
Is Banff any worse than Inverness, or Clerkenwell? The weirdest thing about the names that start with a double\*\* f\*\* is that you _don’t_ capitalize them. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/5 "2010-02-07T01:19:45Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > The weirdest thing about the names that start with a double f is that you don’t capitalize them. That’s because the initial double-lowercase-f is a variant form of the initial capital F. In a sense, names like “ffoster” and “ffellowes” and “ffinch-ffarrowmere” ARE “capitalized”, it’s just that the capital “F” is spelled “ff”. I imagine that it’s confusion about this that has produced the hybrid forms like “Ffellowes” in the OP, where the initial f is both doubled **and** capitalized. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/6 "2010-02-07T01:23:27Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Anyone want to take a stab at Banff. Wiki sez: > [@](#): > > [The name “Banff”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banff_and_Macduff#Etymology) is uncertain but may be derived from the Scottish Gaelic Banbh or Banbha, a sow, buinne, a stream, or a contraction of Bean-naomh, the holy woman (as is reflected in the town’s coat-of-arms). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/7 "2010-02-07T01:27:47Z")
Post-ETA: Saw in the linked thread that **Dr. Drake** pointed out “For one thing, the Welsh capitalize the first [f] when it occurs in names, e.g. Ffagan.” That is, there’s a Welsh double-f that represents an actual different consonant from the English “f”, not just a typographical variant. So capitalizing a **Welsh** double-f when it appears at the beginning of a proper name is correct, but capitalizing an **English** double-f in the same situation is incorrect. My head hurts. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/8 "2010-02-07T02:20:05Z")
Ah, so Ffleuder Fflam is correct, then, since Prydain is based on Welsh mythology. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/9 "2010-02-07T02:38:54Z")
I went to a reading by writer Jasper Fforde a while back and he talked about the origin of the spelling of his name. The family name was originally plain “Ford” and it all came down to an ancestor of his being pissed off with something a cousin had done and not wanting people to think they were related. Which leads me top a brief hijack: I used to know someone called Burness. her ancestor had changed his name from Burns so that no one associated him with that low fellow Robert. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/10 "2010-02-07T03:23:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The **initial** double-f is an archaic form of the capital F. The name “ffoster” is just an old-fashioned form of “Foster”. > > I vaguely remember [someone else asking the same thing a while ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-421391.html). ffurther support ffor my contention that the farious dialects of Gaelic were ffirst written down by people with an unclear idea of how letters worked. Not as bad as Cyrillic, since St Cyril had only the vaguest idea how they looked, much less how they sounded. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/11 "2010-02-07T04:02:01Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > ffurther support ffor my contention that the farious dialects of Gaelic were ffirst written down by people with an unclear idea of how letters worked. Not as bad as Cyrillic, since St Cyril had only the vaguest idea how they looked, much less how they sounded. I know you’re making a joke, but it’s sort of true. Thurneysen’s _Grammar of Old Irish_ explains it nicely. Mind you, Welsh is not Gaelic, and has to find its own excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/12 "2010-02-07T05:10:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Ah, so Ffleuder Fflam is correct, then, since Prydain is based on Welsh mythology. _Cringe_ That’s Fflewddur Fflam, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/13 "2010-02-07T05:31:42Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > _Cringe_ That’s Fflewddur Fflam, dude. If only it were so simple. _Fleudur Flam_ in the triads and _The Dream of Rhonabwy_; _Fflewdwr Flam_ in _Culhwch & Olwen_; rendered as Ffleudur Fflam by R. Bromwich, who then says it’s probably meant to be Fflewdwrn (“Fflew-fist,” whatever fflew is supposed to mean) Fflam (“Flame”). Personally I think the -dur ending (“hard, steely”) is more likely, but I can’t do anything with the first element either so who knows. Lloyd Alexander is a latecomer to this game. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/14 "2010-02-07T06:11:50Z")
Some small Banff trivia - the name is hard for English speaker to pronounce properly. Funnily enough, Quebecois seem to pronounce it the best (I’ve heard it myself - a friend from Montreal pronounced it perfectly). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/15 "2010-02-07T20:42:20Z")
Huh, I had no idea that the lying bard had such a badass name. ---
**Author:** ![nudgenudge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9f8e36/32.png) [@nudgenudge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nudgenudge)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/16 "2010-02-07T23:35:16Z")
A single F in Welsh words indicates the sound that is repesented by V in English. For example, the common Welsh name “Trefor”, pronounced “Trevor”. When Welsh really does mean the English F, it is represented by the double FF in English writing. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/17 "2010-02-08T22:07:04Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Some small Banff trivia - the name is hard for English speaker to pronounce properly. Funnily enough, Quebecois seem to pronounce it the best (I’ve heard it myself - a friend from Montreal pronounced it perfectly). I’ll bite: how is it supposed to be pronounced? I pronounce it “banf,” one syllable, “ban” followed directly by “fff.” Banff. Almost like Emeril’s trademark phrase, except with an “nf” at the end instead of an “m.” (Not “ban-iff,” two syllables, like I have heard some people pronounce it.) ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/18 "2010-02-08T22:59:57Z")
I always pronounce Banff F-Troop style: Ban-f-f. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/19 "2010-02-09T02:05:02Z")
It is produced “banf,” but us native English speakers tend to make it sound more like “Bamnff” - the n f sound is a bit tricky for us. ---
**Author:** ![Standup\_Karmic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@Standup\_Karmic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Standup_Karmic)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-strapping-young-ffellowes-from-banff/527963/20 "2010-02-09T02:18:55Z")
I would say most Calgarians pronounce it something like “Bampf”. Friends and I deliberately mispronounce it “Banf f”. Incorrect, yes, but fun to say!