# Some Street Cyclists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 7, 2009, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797 "2009-02-07T11:14:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/61 "2009-02-10T17:32:23Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > **Printchester** brought up the absurd argument that as everyone in the world has made some sort of mistake at some time,and that there are dangerous people in motor vehicles and no doubt people who ride different kinds of bike or who are pedestrians that no one group (even if they are a recognisable sub section of traffic) or by her reasoning any individual should ever be castigated ever for endangering other peoples lives EVER. As as second note, I could see nothing in\*\* Princhester\*\*'s post that said this. So it seems that Strawmen and sad insults are all you have here. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/62 "2009-02-10T17:40:14Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > You’re not very good at this, are you,\*\* Lust4Life?\*\* What talking to morons? No I find it very difficult to communicate with someone so proffessionally unintelligent as yourself. I appear to have touched some sort of raw nerve with you,you are certainly radiating hurt feelings in both of your latter posts. Never mind have a good cry and just try and get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/63 "2009-02-10T17:43:56Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > What talking to morons? > No I find it very difficult to communicate with someone so proffessionally unintelligent as yourself. > > I appear to have touched some sort of raw nerve with you,you are certainly radiating hurt feelings in both of your latter posts. > > Never mind have a good cry and just try and get over it. Just keep telling yourself that, sunshine. Meanwhile, want to actually support your claims with something more than playground bluster? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/64 "2009-02-10T17:45:30Z")
I know biking is apparently a huge controversy. I loved biking to work last summer - did it for the first time - and am anxiously waiting for the snow to melt so I can do it this year. Right now I can’t even get my bike out of the shed, there’s so much snow around. If anything, I think more bikers should be ticketed for not following the law. I have several traffic lights on my way, so I don’t use toe clips (I will SURELY fall over and humiliate myself), and I stop at every red light . Last year twice I saw a biker shoot past the same traffic light I was stopped at. Once I got a dirty look from one. Sorry, but it’s the law, and I don’t care to get run over. Albany definitely could be a bike friendly city and it is working on it. I think people really should make an effort to differentiate from the asshole bikers, of which there are plenty, and people who are trying to get along. I looked up all of the relevant bike laws when I started, and actually read them, and I obey them. I wear a helmet and don’t listen to my iPod when biking or get on my cellphone. I resent being lumped in with the bad bikers - I really make an effort, and it’s generally a joy. That being said, mostly I have had really good experiences. Cars are very nice - there are always exceptions, but I was really impressed at how many people let me go, or waited for me. I am not a fast biker, after all. The only thing I find a little sad is I never, ever see another female biker commuting. Females certainly bike, I’m sure of it, but I have never seen one commuting as far back as I can remember. I used to be fairly against bikers, too, I admit. Biking, and being on their side of the equation, has really opened my eyes. It is possible to be a polite and respectful biker and not an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/65 "2009-02-10T17:51:37Z")
I see a guy riding a road bike in Lycra and Spandex cycling clothes as using a form of aposematism, or warning coloration, like if he were driving a BMW or a 4WD with enormous tires: I’d better be careful around him because too many people like him are self-centered, tunnel-visioned jerks. On the other hand, BMW and monster truck drivers are MUCH less likely to run stop signs. Now if you will excuse me, it’s going to be over 60F today and my old Fuji road bike is calling my name. But I wear jersey, not Lycra–they don’t make Lycra big enough. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/66 "2009-02-10T18:03:34Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Ah, I stand corrected. That’s definitely an example of a cyclist causing a fatal accident. > > :rolleyes: What, you want more? Okay: [[A] kindergarten bus killed 19 people and injuring 16 in Shenzhen, South China’s Guangdong Province, when it swerved to avoid a bicycle and crashed onto a pavement crowded with snack vendors, workers and couples on an outdoor dance floor.](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-08/25/content_471991.htm) [“We have reports of vehicles swerving to avoid a cyclist riding without lights.”](http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Driver-escapes-car-flips/article-577430-detail/article.html) (Nobody killed in this particular incident, fortunately.) [Police said both cars swerved to avoid a cyclist and one of the vehicles crashed into a drain, killing Mr Johnson.](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/palmerston-north/news/article.cfm?l_id=269&objectid=10523923) [A 62-year-old woman driving a Ford Focus traveling southbound on Boston Road in Crotona swerved to avoid a bicyclist at about 4:30 p.m., according to police. As she made the evasive maneuver, she crashed into Con Ed worker Mun Yuen, smashing him against a restaurant, police said.](http://www.nypost.com/seven/11052006/news/regionalnews/car_kills_con_ed_man_in_bronx_regionalnews_bridgitte_williams_jones.htm) [A Stanton man was killed Sunday morning after losing control of his car. Witnesses said Eung Kim, 23, was driving south on Beach Boulevard in Anaheim about 12:15 a.m. when he swerved to avoid a bicyclist.](http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jun/09/local/me-ocbriefs9.1) [The driver swerved to avoid a bicyclist who was crossing the street, but hit Deutsch.](http://articles.latimes.com/1997/oct/25/local/me-46431) Shall I continue? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/67 "2009-02-10T18:17:11Z")
I know these are incidents, but seriously, why the cyclist considered 100% at fault? > [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > What, you want more? Okay: > [[A] kindergarten bus killed 19 people and injuring 16 in Shenzhen, South China’s Guangdong Province, when it swerved to avoid a bicycle and crashed onto a pavement crowded with snack vendors, workers and couples on an outdoor dance floor.](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-08/25/content_471991.htm) "Since no skid marks were found at the scene, police said Li may have mistakenly stepped on the accelerator instead of the brake. The cause of the accident is still under investigation. " > [@](#): > > [“We have reports of vehicles swerving to avoid a cyclist riding without lights.”](http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Driver-escapes-car-flips/article-577430-detail/article.html) (Nobody killed in this particular incident, fortunately.) No comment here, as no injury. > [@](#): > > [Police said both cars swerved to avoid a cyclist and one of the vehicles crashed into a drain, killing Mr Johnson.](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/palmerston-north/news/article.cfm?l_id=269&objectid=10523923) Forgot this part: “Police today named a Manawatu 16-year-old killed in what appears to have been a crash involving \*\*two cars racing \*\*at the weekend.” > [@](#): > > [A 62-year-old woman driving a Ford Focus traveling southbound on Boston Road in Crotona swerved to avoid a bicyclist at about 4:30 p.m., according to police. As she made the evasive maneuver, she crashed into Con Ed worker Mun Yuen, smashing him against a restaurant, police said.](http://www.nypost.com/seven/11052006/news/regionalnews/car_kills_con_ed_man_in_bronx_regionalnews_bridgitte_williams_jones.htm) This one is legit, if it is as presented. That makes one. > [@](#): > > [A Stanton man was killed Sunday morning after losing control of his car. Witnesses said Eung Kim, 23, was driving south on Beach Boulevard in Anaheim about 12:15 a.m. when he swerved to avoid a bicyclist.](http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jun/09/local/me-ocbriefs9.1) Gee, flips his car on a Boulevard. Speed much? > [@](#): > > [The driver swerved to avoid a bicyclist who was crossing the street, but hit Deutsch.](http://articles.latimes.com/1997/oct/25/local/me-46431) Oh for Pete’s sake: “According to witnesses, the car’s passenger was so impatient for the signal to change that he got out repeatedly to press the pedestrian signal button. The driver turned against the light onto westbound Culver Boulevard” You also forgot it was a hit-and-run. > [@](#): > > Shall I continue? Sure, even if we grant you these you’ve got 39,994 to go to match a years worth of auto fatalities. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/68 "2009-02-10T18:24:20Z")
A car swerving to avoid a cyclist may be the fault of the cyclist but it may also be the fault of the driver. In most of these cites, it is not clear who is at fault, and in some cites it’s clearly the driver: [[A] kindergarten bus killed 19 people and injuring 16 in Shenzhen, South China’s Guangdong Province, when it swerved to avoid a bicycle and crashed onto a pavement crowded with snack vendors, workers and couples on an outdoor dance floor.](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-08/25/content_471991.htm) - "Witnesses say the bus was crossing an intersection at a bridge as the lights changed when a cyclist pulled out in front of it. " - not enough information to judge. [“We have reports of vehicles swerving to avoid a cyclist riding without lights.”](http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Driver-escapes-car-flips/article-577430-detail/article.html) - cyclist at fault. [Police said both cars swerved to avoid a cyclist and one of the vehicles crashed into a drain, killing Mr Johnson.](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/palmerston-north/news/article.cfm?l_id=269&objectid=10523923) - “Police today named a Manawatu 16-year-old killed in what appears to have been a crash involving two cars racing at the weekend.” Driver at fault. [A 62-year-old woman driving a Ford Focus traveling southbound on Boston Road in Crotona swerved to avoid a bicyclist at about 4:30 p.m., according to police. As she made the evasive maneuver, she crashed into Con Ed worker Mun Yuen, smashing him against a restaurant, police said.](http://www.nypost.com/seven/11052006/news/regionalnews/car_kills_con_ed_man_in_bronx_regionalnews_bridgitte_williams_jones.htm) - Not clear [A Stanton man was killed Sunday morning after losing control of his car. Witnesses said Eung Kim, 23, was driving south on Beach Boulevard in Anaheim about 12:15 a.m. when he swerved to avoid a bicyclist.](http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jun/09/local/me-ocbriefs9.1) - not clear [The driver swerved to avoid a bicyclist who was crossing the street, but hit Deutsch.](http://articles.latimes.com/1997/oct/25/local/me-46431) - " According to witnesses, the car’s passenger was so impatient for the signal to change that he got out repeatedly to press the pedestrian signal button. The driver turned against the light onto westbound Culver Boulevard. The driver swerved to avoid a bicyclist who was crossing the street, but hit Deutsch." Driver at fault. > [@Lute Skywalker](#): > > Shall I continue? Please do! On preview: I see Mr Miskatonic has got here first, and done better. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/69 "2009-02-10T18:30:26Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > I know these are incidents, but seriously, why the cyclist considered 100% at fault? What part of “a motorist who swerves to avoid killing an idiot cyclist CAN kill someone else” or “do you have specific examples in mind” means “the cylist [is] considered 100% at fault?” Motorists have been known to swerve to avoid cyclists, particularly idiot cyclists at night without reflectors or lights, and sometimes those motorists kill people other than the cyclist. Putting emphasis on speed or DWI doesn’t make this fact go away. ---
**Author:** ![Discipline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Discipline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discipline)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/70 "2009-02-10T18:33:57Z")
I swerved to avoid a cyclist on my way to making this post. True story. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/71 "2009-02-10T18:40:27Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > What part of “a motorist who swerves to avoid killing an idiot cyclist CAN kill someone else” or “do you have specific examples in mind” means “the cylist [is] considered 100% at fault?” I’ll grant you the point that it does happen has been made. But I find it very telling that your examples had a very large percentage of cases where the drivers were at fault if not acting outright illegally! Given that this was a major point with the OP, don’t you think that his attack on cyclists seems to be a drastic case of projection? > [@](#): > > Motorists have been known to swerve to avoid cyclists, particularly idiot cyclists at night without reflectors or lights, and sometimes those motorists kill people other than the cyclist. Putting emphasis on speed or DWI doesn’t make this fact go away. I don’t think your examples support this comment, and even if it did, the fact that you find a way to blame cyclists for the illegal actions of drivers very telling. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/72 "2009-02-10T18:44:09Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > I don’t think your examples support this comment Not even [this](http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Driver-escapes-car-flips/article-577430-detail/article.html)? That’s not the only report of vehicles swerving to avoid cyclists riding without lights, you know. > [@](#): > > _the fact that you find a way to blame cyclists for the illegal actions of drivers very telling._ How am I blaming cyclists by providing **scr4** with the reqested specific examples of a motorist swerving to avoid killing a [not neccessarily] idiot cyclist and killing someone else? ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/73 "2009-02-10T18:47:01Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Motorists have been known to swerve to avoid cyclists, particularly idiot cyclists at night without reflectors or lights, and sometimes those motorists kill people other than the cyclist. Putting emphasis on speed or DWI doesn’t make this fact go away. Motorists have also been known to swerve to avoid other motorists, particularly idiot motorists, and sometimes people die as a result. (I would submit for consideration the possibility that this happens as often, or more often, than motorists kill someone by swerving to avoid a cyclist.) I can get behind the movement to ban motorists (even just the idiot ones), but frankly I don’t think this line of argument is going to get very far. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/74 "2009-02-10T18:48:14Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I have been fuming about this subject for some time but what has brought me to actually making this pitting is reading in my local paper that one of these characters has just got himself killed by running into the side of an articulated lorry. Please can I get a link for that? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/75 "2009-02-10T18:49:35Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > Motorists have also been known to swerve to avoid other motorists, particularly idiot motorists, and sometimes people die as a result. Yeah, but nobody asked for examples of those. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/76 "2009-02-10T18:54:42Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Yeah, but nobody asked for examples of those. You are ignoring this post, or else you are disingenuously ignoring its intention: > [@scr4](#): > > Ah, I stand corrected. That’s definitely an example of a cyclist causing a fatal accident. A good faith interpretation of this would be that he is looking for examples of cyclists causing fatal accidents. You ignored this interpretation and presented examples of careless drivers causing fatal accidents, as if they were examples of careless cyclists causing fatal accidents. Are you arguing in good faith? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/77 "2009-02-10T18:57:23Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Please can I get a link for that? I’m guessing [this](http://www.thisishampshire.net/news/hampshirenews/4107946.Friend___s_horror_as_rider_was_crushed/). ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/78 "2009-02-10T18:59:06Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > A good faith interpretation of this would be that he is looking for examples of cyclists causing fatal accidents. I didn’t take that as a serious request but rather read the whole thing as dripping sarcasm and went about addressing the original request. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/79 "2009-02-10T19:11:22Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I didn’t take that as a serious request but rather read the whole thing as dripping sarcasm and went about addressing the original request. So you’re not arguing in good faith. Good to know. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/80 "2009-02-10T19:15:52Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > So you’re not arguing in good faith. Good to know. Excuse me for not noticing **scr4** was being serious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797.md?page=5)