# Some Street Cyclists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 7, 2009, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797 "2009-02-07T11:14:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/81 "2009-02-10T19:22:14Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I’m guessing [this](http://www.thisishampshire.net/news/hampshirenews/4107946.Friend___s_horror_as_rider_was_crushed/). That doesn’t seem likely. The OP claimed to be irate at people “pretending to be pro racers they have absaloutley no awareness of what the fuck is happening around them. They are bent over the handlebars staring straight ahead and going much faster then their reaction ability can handle resulting in everyone else in their vicinity having to get out of their way or risk a collision.” and that what had set him off was “reading in my local paper that one of these characters has just got himself killed by running into the side of an articulated lorry.” Which doesn’t tally with the incident described in the paper: " Glenn Syder was less than 20m away when the articulated lorry started to pull out of a junction and into his path. Witnesses said the 49-year-old father of four from Fareham was left with “nowhere to go” and described how he smashed into the side of the vehicle’s cab before falling under its wheel. " Perhaps lust4life could give us a link to the incident he’s referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/82 "2009-02-10T19:33:20Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Excuse me for not noticing **scr4** was being serious. I don’t speak for scr4, but I’d say he was being serious. He was also being sarcastic. The OP complained about the horrific dangers caused by cyclists when cars swerve to avoid them, with the strong implication that it was all the cyclists’ fault. scr4 then asked for examples where this was the case. First came back with a driver who was both drunk and speeding. scr4 rolled his eyes at this as an example. You came back with more, but very poor examples. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/83 "2009-02-10T19:39:08Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Not even [this](http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Driver-escapes-car-flips/article-577430-detail/article.html)? That’s not the only report of vehicles swerving to avoid cyclists riding without lights, you know. As I noted, this was an example from you that actually stands. Unfortunately, it hardly supports the accusation by the OP. Its also pretty weak. > [@](#): > > How am I blaming cyclists by providing **scr4** with the reqested specific examples of a motorist swerving to avoid killing a [not neccessarily] idiot cyclist and killing someone else? I think it was clear what was being looked for to anyone who read the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/84 "2009-02-10T19:40:25Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > That doesn’t seem likely. It’s the only recent cyclist vs. articulated lorry article that Google News could find. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/85 "2009-02-10T19:55:31Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > As I noted, this was an example from you that actually stands. Unfortunately, it hardly supports the accusation by the OP. And how does “reports of vehicles swerving to avoid a cyclist riding without lights” not support my comment in post #69? Another such incident [ends with the motorist crashing into a tree](http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-69246981.html) but could have been worse. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/86 "2009-02-10T20:02:03Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > And how does “reports of vehicles swerving to avoid a cyclist riding without lights” not support my comment in post #69? Another such incident [ends with the motorist crashing into a tree](http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-69246981.html) but could have been worse. I don’t give a damn about you supporting later comments. I give a damn about the unsupported accusations from the OP. BTW, your link requires a subscription. Don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/87 "2009-02-10T20:11:46Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > I don’t give a damn about you supporting later comments. I give a damn about the unsupported accusations from the OP. Well, “getting other people killed” isn’t exactly unsupported anymore, is it? > [@](#): > > _BTW, your link requires a subscription. Don’t think so._ Sorry, didn’t realize that, either. Guess I’m registered via work. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/88 "2009-02-10T20:27:07Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Well, “getting other people killed” isn’t exactly unsupported anymore, is it? It is at best, tenuous, especially given the type of cyclist the OP describes. He was complaining about a type of cyclist who a) rarely ventures out at night, and b) if he does is lit like a road flare. He complains about not being able to cast a wide net to include asshole drivers, yet happily casts a net over multiple types of riders while trying to cover his ass by putting the word ‘Some’ in the title. Its inconsistent, biased, and unsupported but is sadly what cyclists have come to expect from The Pit. The number of ‘deaths’, even counting the ones caused by flagrant driver misconduct (i.e. most of them) caused by swerving is hardly worth the viritol by the OP. Yet somehow as long as you get in a few unlit cyclists in there it makes up for the outright murder of cyclists, assaults, and illegal activity performed by drivers IN THE LINKS YOU PROVIDED! Tens of thousands of people are killed by cars each year. Yet a handful of swerves by folks overdriving their headlights and claiming to be avoiding unlit cyclists\* somehow is worthy of pitting? I just don’t get it? - - Yes there are tons of idiot cyclists riding at night without lights. That being said there are probably twice as many drivers who just aren’t looking or driving too fast. I myself have been accused of ‘riding with lights’ when I had two powerful units working in addition to a reflector. I have to wonder about many of these cases, no doubt some are legit but many are just folks going too fast at night. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/89 "2009-02-10T20:32:43Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Tens of thousands of people are killed by cars each year. Yet a handful of swerves by folks overdriving their headlights and claiming to be avoiding unlit cyclists\* somehow is worthy of pitting? [I’m not qualified to answer that.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=173035) 🙂 (IOW, this place would not be as busy if people waited for something to qualify prior to starting a thread) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/90 "2009-02-10T20:44:17Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > It is at best, tenuous, especially given the type of cyclist the OP describes. He was complaining about a type of cyclist who a) rarely ventures out at night, and b) if he does is lit like a road flare. Funny, I don’t see anyone using this description other than you. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/91 "2009-02-10T20:59:34Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Funny, I don’t see anyone using this description other than you. That would be your lack of experience showing. Read this again: > [@](#): > > "But here in the U.K. we have a particular breed of street cyclist who are at best a fucking nuisance, at worst a serious danger to themselves,other road users and pedestrians. > > They are easily identified because they virtually always ride racing bikes and have all of the acoutrements of Tour de France athletes,the crash hat,the lycra etc.etc. That, through all the spit and viritol, describes racing cycists. Bike couriers don’t fit this description. At night, typically the type of rider you encounter is a thrillseeker, a commuter, a casual rider, or a [mopey singing girls and their freaky animal friends](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wnOUH2jk8) . Racers, which seems to be what the OP is pointing at seem at, rarely remain out for night riding for the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/92 "2009-02-10T21:39:52Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > At night, typically the type of rider you encounter is a thrillseeker, a commuter, a casual rider, or a [mopey singing girls and their freaky animal friends](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wnOUH2jk8) > . Racers, which seems to be what the OP is pointing at seem at, rarely remain out for night riding for the most part. The OP is clearly pointing at riders who apparently only _think_ they are racers but in reality are not: “They are always males and usually middle aged so I suspect some sort of mid life crisis may be part of this phenonomen.” The average Tour de France cyclist is under 30. These guys may have the all the accoutrements for the Tour de France but the Tour is only in daylight. Having the proper accoutrements for being “lit like a road flare” after dark does not necessarily follow. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/93 "2009-02-10T21:54:32Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > The OP is clearly pointing at riders who apparently only _think_ they are racers but in reality are not: “They are always males and usually middle aged so I suspect some sort of mid life crisis may be part of this phenonomen.” The average Tour de France cyclist is under 30. Methinks the OP is envious. Some of these folks do race and I’ve seen ones who look a little over-the-hill or creaky looking guys & gals that can smoke a rider 1/3 their age. Just because they aren’t in the Tour de France doesn’t mean they can’t ride in other, smaller races. Certainly there are some wannabees out there, but it gets put in the same category: They are considered racers, even if they cannot race. > [@](#): > > These guys may have the all the accoutrements for the Tour de France but the Tour is only in daylight. Having the proper accoutrements for being “lit like a road flare” after dark does not necessarily follow. Hence my first qualifier: not being out at night at all. I see and encounter plenty of racers out during the daytime. But their numbers fall drastically, and when you do see them they have some serious lighting hardware. Which means that they are not the unlit cyclists you cited as being swerved around, because again they are either a) not out at night, or b) lit up. Its not hard to figure out, OK? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/94 "2009-02-10T22:07:47Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Hence my first qualifier: not being out at night at all. I see and encounter plenty of racers out during the daytime. But their numbers fall drastically, and when you do see them they have some serious lighting hardware. > > Which means that they are not the unlit cyclists you cited as being swerved around, because again they are either a) not out at night, or b) lit up. Methinks you’re assuming things not in evidence, being as the OP didn’t say a thing about lights, but whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/95 "2009-02-10T22:14:37Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Methinks you’re assuming things not in evidence, being as the OP didn’t say a thing about lights, but whatever. No, he didn’t. But he _did_ bring up cars swerving to avoid evil cyclists and _you_ mentioned swerving around unlit cyclists. The type of cyclist the OP described just doesn’t fall into that category. Sorry, but that’s the voice of experience. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/96 "2009-02-10T23:32:35Z")
Full disclosure: I’ve been the sort of cyclist described in the OP, except I was 17 and didn’t wear lycra. The racing bike was a Peugeot that belonged to my brother, he bought it in Europe while touring the continent by bicycle. I was often out after dark without any lights. I know an anecdote isn’t the same as datum but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/97 "2009-02-11T04:05:40Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I also hate dangerous drivers but that is a subject for another thread,pitting ALL As to your broad categorisation of drivers as in MOST only staring straight ahead I would remind you that MOST cars have something we call mirrors,this allows the motorist to see behind him. > As he also has at least side windows and his head is not restrained he can also see to the side. Your OP contains gross, broad brush criticism against a particular category of road user, based on prejudice and ignorance. When I did something similar in relation to motorists, you melt down. Sure cars have mirrors. You can hear better on a bike, though. And you can see to either side better than in a car. No pillars. I have no idea what your “head restrained” comment is supposed to reference. > [@](#): > > And yes cars do go faster then bycycles but they usually have the braking power commensurate with their horsepower. You were talking about reaction time. Your comment made no sense. And while I agree that cars have brakes commensurate with their horsepower, the simple fact is that the faster you go, the longer it takes to stop, whether on a bike or in a car. So there is no reason at all to single out cyclists who are generally going slower, and who will do far, far less damage if they hit someone or thing. > [@](#): > > No I haven’t seen a motorist or passenger killed directly by a cyclist,that wasn’t my point at all. But a motorist who swerves to avoid killing an idiot cyclist CAN kill someone else. Did you actually read the part of my post about cyclistswho have never had an accident but have been the cause of many? Sure. I just thought it was all horseshit, and still do. The only concrete example you gave was of an event that didn’t support your position, and you’ve come up with no actual examples (let alone valid statistics) that do. You can blow hot air all you like. The simple fact is though that motorists kill people all the time and cyclists don’t. Fantasies you may have notwithstanding. > [@](#): > > People who lack awareness or follow bad practices on the road fuck up more often then those who DO have awareness and follow good practices. And motherhood and apple pie are just great, ain’t they? What is your point? > [@](#): > > And once again my answer is NO,I do not hate certain cyclists for wearing certain types of clothing but I DO hate idiot,ignorant and arrogant cyclists who put other peoples lives and safety at risk and who as a general norm in my rather extensive experience tend to wear the outfits that I described upthread. Prejudice noted. I’ll give you a tip on rhetoric. If you don’t want people to realise you have an irrational prejudice, don’t mix up your arguments with vitriolic comments on clothing. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/98 "2009-02-11T04:27:41Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > This one is legit, if it is as presented. That makes one. No, disagree. There is nothing in that story that suggests the cyclist was doing anything wrong at all. The story says nothing of the kind. In fact, given that the story ends by saying no one was charged, it suggests that the police concluded precisely that the cyclist was doing nothing wrong. The point that you are missing, **Lute** is that the only statistic that will help you is one that shows that, regularly, cyclists who are doing _something wrong_ force motorists to take evasive action and cause accidents. Obviously inattentive motorists sometimes swerve to avoid other road users etc, but unless that other road user was doing something wrong, such accidents are the motorists fault, not the other road user’s fault. My review of your cites suggests that the incident of someone swerving to avoid a cyclist without lights is the only example you have come up with. And unless you can show that the guy was wearing lycra, riding a drop bar bike etc you haven’t supported the OP. > [@Lust4Life](#): > > **Princhester** brought up the absurd argument that as everyone in the world has made some sort of mistake at some time,and that there are dangerous people in motor vehicles and no doubt people who ride different kinds of bike or who are pedestrians that no one group (even if they are a recognisable sub section of traffic) or by her reasoning any individual should ever be castigated ever for endangering other peoples lives EVER. Ironic that you are attacking others’ abilities with language while not being able to understand what I wrote. Or you are deliberately strawmanning. The point is simply that (even assuming your SWSS example is factual) one example of someone doing something stupid resulting in his own death is hardly grounds for a pitting. And _certainly_ does not support the suggestion that every other person who rides the same sort of bike or wears clothing of similar fabric is equally as likely to do something similarly stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/99 "2009-02-11T15:28:53Z")
\*\*Printchester \*\* reference vitriol ,try following your own advice,I only turn nasty when people act that way to me. And as a general point no one has ever been killed by being run over by a dog as far as I know but I wouldn’t be stunned with amazement if plenty of road traffic accidents have been caused as an indirect result of dogs being in the road,and no I’m not even going to bother to give a cite . Further up thread,no these people AREN’T genuine racers out training,racers as far as I know tend not to train in heavy inner city,rush hour traffic. To answer other points upthread I am not envious of cycle racers if I was then I could have joined my uncles club or taken part in the stadium races not too far from me . Competitive cycling has never has never been of interest to me either as a spectator sport or a participant sport. And once again I make the point that its not the gear that I am opposed to(And yes I can afford to buy it if I wished to, we’re not exactly talking mega bucks here) but the sub section of cyclists that I have described who tend to wear it somewhat like a uniform for everyday commuting just as a certain type of Motor Cyclist wear a specific kind of outfit and follow a certain type of behaviour,or youth cults or whatever. I quite honestly cant put it any simpler then that and if anyone cant understand this point then logical debate is not within their capability. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797/100 "2009-02-11T15:59:15Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > My review of your cites suggests that the incident of someone swerving to avoid a cyclist without lights is the only example you have come up with. How about [a cyclist reportedly darting into traffic and forcing a motorist to swerve into a Home Depot](http://mississauga.com/article/13184)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-street-cyclists/484797.md?page=6)