# Some suggestions regarding the situation around George Floyd's death. Are these ideas simplistic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2020, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661 "2020-05-29T12:57:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/181 "2020-06-04T15:37:26Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > The victims are 200 years old at this point. Read what I am saying here : They definitely were victims, and some STILL are victims of racism and that shit needs to be stomped out but it needs to stop being the end all be all issue. Racist policies needs to stop, that even means the racist policies that are trying to right a 200 year old wrong (like AA) And how about righting a wrong that happened last week? You do realize that not only do harms of the past still have effects on the present, but that the harms are continuing to this day, right? > [@](#): > > I am willing to accept _some_ but it rarely is seen to be _some_ and more often than not I am being asked to assume _all_ responsibility. Society has to accept responsibility when it fails its citizens. You are not to blame for _all_ of societies ills, only the ones you condone or perpetuate. > [@](#): > > The black community is going to have to police themselves, just like police forces are going to have to police themselves. > > > [@](#): > > > > I think that the police could be improved substantially by better screening of applicants, better training of hirees, and removing those from the force that cannot uphold the standards expected of them. > > > > How do you suggest we do that with a community of people? Are you under the impression that they don’t try to improve their community? > > Too often, people (like you) are looking to blame others, ANYONE ELSE for the problems that continue to plague their communities and more often than not they have it within themselves to fix those problems on their own (if they need help, I am more than willing) Do you even see the irony in this statement? You are looking to blame them for the environment that we have provided them. You say that you are more than willing to help, but when they ask for help, you tell them that they are looking to blame others, and that they need to police themselves, even that righting a 200 year old wrong would be unthinkable. That they should be more like the Chinese. > [@](#): > > The Chinese Americans are somehow different and far removed from the black communities, but really they aren’t that different in the modern respective history within the US. But, they have pulled themselves out of the poverty and racism that certainly was a giant hindrance in the early 1900’s through hard work, education, and familial support. Yes, they are different. They had a different history both with immigration, and how they were treated by those in the majority. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/182 "2020-06-04T16:28:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > And how about righting a wrong that happened last week? > > You do realize that not only do harms of the past still have effects on the present, but that the harms are continuing to this day, right? > > Society has to accept responsibility when it fails its citizens. You are not to blame for _all_ of societies ills, only the ones you condone or perpetuate. > > Do you even see the irony in this statement? You are looking to blame them for the environment that we have provided them. > > You say that you are more than willing to help, but when they ask for help, you tell them that they are looking to blame others, and that they need to police themselves, even that righting a 200 year old wrong would be unthinkable. That they should be more like the Chinese. > Yes, they are different. They had a different history both with immigration, and how they were treated by those in the majority. The harms of today need to be addressed. The harms of last week are being addressed, today. Is that a problem? The society in San Francisco has no business addressing the ills of society in New York. They simply cannot know what needs doing across the country. I am not blaming anyone for their environment, except when their environment has direct correlation to the culture that they themselves perpetuate. The environment that WE provide is the US of A. Land of the free, home of the brave. I am willing to help, just not willing to do something, anything, just because you think we need to. Want MY help, listen to my ideas, my concerns, and my own issues. Poverty is the issue, not color of skin. And no I was simply saying the Chinese Americans HAVE pulled themselves up. What has happened to the black population to keep them down this past 50 years? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/183 "2020-06-04T17:00:22Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > What has happened to the black population to keep them down this past 50 years? Broadly speaking and off the top of my head: unfairness in law enforcement and prosecution (i.e. “black crimes” like crack being treated much more harshly than “white crimes” like powder cocaine); unequal distribution of resources (education, health services, etc.); unequal protection of the environment and other health-related issues (i.e. the places black people live are generally more polluted and toxic than other places, even when accounting for income); general societal/cultural assignment of negative characteristics such as violence and criminality with blackness (and, like it or not, this stuff in broader culture affects children); the private prison industry creating a profit motive for harsh treatment by the justice system; the “war on drugs” as an excuse for brutality against black people (and especially young black men); the ongoing gaslighting about how American society treats black people that’s been occurring for centuries; and much more. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/184 "2020-06-04T17:22:36Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > The victims are 200 years old at this point. Read what I am saying here : They definitely were victims, and some STILL are victims of racism and that shit needs to be stomped out but it needs to stop being the end all be all issue. Racist policies needs to stop, that even means the racist policies that are trying to right a 200 year old wrong (like AA) I think there is some truth to what you are saying; I believe that sometimes we are quick to play the victim and that applies to the black community as well as everybody else. But that is only a small part of the overall problem and we aren’t focusing enough on current vestiges of racism. For example, explicit [redlining](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining) took place as recent as the late 70’s (and I’m sure much longer in some areas). This has held back the net worth of minority families that is **still** a major impact today. What do you do about that? And that’s besides the obvious issues brought about by Floyd and Arbery. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/185 "2020-06-04T17:25:37Z")
Stop doing and/or selling drugs. About three of those issues go away. If it’s illegal, don’t do it. I know, novel idea right? Unequal distribution of educational resources??? Aren’t the states responsible for the distribution of educational wealth? If some town wants to spend more , that is simply their free will. Money doesn’t buy education (It may help but if the desire to learn is there, education can be gotten off the internet) What absolutely DOES help is the desire, and the involvement of parents (2 helps) More polluted and toxic places of habitation??? Have we moved them to these places against their wills or did they help create those environs? I think this is where we get lost. I firmly believe that we, as a society can certainly help, but we can’t do everything for people who are unwilling to better themselves. And yes, that means that there are some folks that WILL stay in those poverty stricken cycles, thus perpetuating poverty. Crimes against blackness, as you put it, needs to be dealt with, HARSHLY. Racism needs to be stamped out in every corner of America, in whatever way necessary _within_ the law. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/186 "2020-06-04T17:55:55Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Stop doing and/or selling drugs. About three of those issues go away. If it’s illegal, don’t do it. > > I know, novel idea right? Drugs are only a part of the law enforcement issues. Did you read the DOJ Ferguson reports? Black people were arrested and fined for _manner of walking on the street_, or some complete bullshit like that. Black drivers were far, far more likely to be stopped and searched than white drivers, _with less contraband found_. How can you expect many or most black folks would see societal institutions as legitimate when they treat black people so unfairly? > [@](#): > > Unequal distribution of educational resources??? Aren’t the states responsible for the distribution of educational wealth? If some town wants to spend more , that is simply their free will. Money doesn’t buy education (It may help but if the desire to learn is there, education can be gotten off the internet) > What absolutely DOES help is the desire, and the involvement of parents (2 helps) I’ve posted about many issues that complicate this – many schools teach black kids that the dialect they speak is “improper English”, when it’s really just a normal separate dialect of English. And when kids are scolded every time they speak, without being taught that the dialect they speak is a real dialect (along with the differences between that dialect and Standard American English), they’re less likely to speak up in class, and do statistically poorer in school. This is just a single example – there are many other ways in which black kids are treated differently in school (another example: the well known more harsh treatment of the same sort of behavior from black kids). Further, if black fathers are more likely to be jailed (or killed, for that matter) just because they’re black, then those kids are less likely to have 2 parents in the home. > [@](#): > > More polluted and toxic places of habitation??? > > Have we moved them to these places against their wills or did they help create those environs? Yes – in many cases this was the only place they were allowed to live, for decades and longer! And then the rest of the community may have been improved and priced out of their range, and they had nowhere to go. Crap schools, crap environment, crap jobs… no wonder some of these kids find other ways to make money and support their families – some don’t have the choice of good education and hard “legitimate” work! Poverty or crime isn’t much of a choice for those without extremely rare athletic or performing talent. > [@](#): > > I think this is where we get lost. I firmly believe that we, as a society can certainly help, but we can’t do everything for people who are unwilling to better themselves. And yes, that means that there are some folks that WILL stay in those poverty stricken cycles, thus perpetuating poverty. > > Crimes against blackness, as you put it, needs to be dealt with, HARSHLY. Racism needs to be stamped out in every corner of America, in whatever way necessary _within_ the law. Our institutions and systems are where this racism is most powerful, and most harmful. And that’s where most of the focus should be. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/187 "2020-06-04T17:57:14Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Stop doing and/or selling drugs. About three of those issues go away. If it’s illegal, don’t do it. Pot was made illegal in the 1930’s specifically because the powers that be didn’t like the people who were using it because they were people of color. Penalties for use of crack cocaine were made much harsher than for use of powder cocaine because the powers that be wanted to punish the people of color who primarily used crack rather than the white folks that used powder cocaine. > [@Kearsen1](#): > > Have we moved them to these places against their wills or did they help create those environs? In many cases, pollution sources are placed in low income areas because the people who live there have fewer resources, power, and organization to resist. It’s probably more of an economic issue than a race issue, but both factor into the decision making process. > [@Kearsen1](#): > > Racism needs to be stamped out in every corner of America, in whatever way necessary _within_ the law. In many cases the laws and enforcement of those laws are racist. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/188 "2020-06-04T18:09:47Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > The harms of today need to be addressed. When? Next week? > [@](#): > > The harms of last week are being addressed, today. Is that a problem? Only that I do not think that they are. Arresting this one guy and his cronies over his public execution is barely a start in addressing the systemic mistreatment and excessive use by law enforcement. I ask you this, had Floyd not died, would we have heard about it? Would we be talking about it at all. For every Floyd out there, there are thousands who have endured the same humiliating and dehumanizing treatment. > [@](#): > > The society in San Francisco has no business addressing the ills of society in New York. They simply cannot know what needs doing across the country. Police brutality is police brutality. If you see it in your neighborhood, then you probably have a bit of solidarity with someone else experiencing it, even on the other side of the country. BTW, where are you from, so I can determine if you have any business addressing the ills of society in New York or in San Francisco. > [@](#): > > I am not blaming anyone for their environment, except when their environment has direct correlation to the culture that they themselves perpetuate. So you are blaming them not only for how their environment affects them, but also for the existence of that environment as well. It’s not a culture. It’s not an identity. It is a reaction to poverty and systemic racism. > [@](#): > > The environment that WE provide is the US of A. Land of the free, home of the brave. Heh. > [@](#): > > I am willing to help, just not willing to do something, anything, just because you think we need to. Want MY help, listen to my ideas, my concerns, and my own issues. So, you are not willing to help then. Someone is drowning, and you say, “I’d come help you out, but first, I need you to acknowledge this inflammation I have between my toes.” > [@](#): > > Poverty is the issue, not color of skin. Agreed. Glad you worked that out. So, how do we solve the issue of generational poverty that has afflicted millions of our fellow citizens? > [@](#): > > And no I was simply saying the Chinese Americans HAVE pulled themselves up. What has happened to the black population to keep them down this past 50 years? You want a list? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/189 "2020-06-04T18:12:55Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Pot was made illegal in the 1930’s specifically because the powers that be didn’t like the people who were using it because they were people of color. Penalties for use of crack cocaine were made much harsher than for use of powder cocaine because the powers that be wanted to punish the people of color who primarily used crack rather than the white folks that used powder cocaine. > In many cases, pollution sources are placed in low income areas because the people who live there have fewer resources, power, and organization to resist. It’s probably more of an economic issue than a race issue, but both factor into the decision making process. > In many cases the laws and enforcement of those laws are racist. I personally do not care about the criminality origins of pot or crack. It’s illegal, don’t do it/FULL STOP Institutional racism is lessened by what exactly? Laws.? Elect the correct set of people, institute good law, not laws like affirmative action which itself is racist. Not institutional policies like diversity at the cost of someone better qualified, this just perpetuates racism. Stop SEEING color, that is what it is going to take to end racism. Unless of course we want to wait a few more hundred years for the genetic make up of everyone in the US to basically be the same. Those economic decisions are never based upon RACE, not these days. Or you’d not have black people in the NBA, NFL or any major sport. So it is very likely that those decisions were ENTIRELY economic in nature. And the only way out of that is to get out of poverty stricken areas (or change them) but then you hear about gentrification issues. What is associated with black culture that isn’t associated with poverty? I can think of 2 or so. Unwed pregnancies, and drug related charges. Those can be stopped by the black populace from the inside but not when rappers are getting praised for perpetuating those criminal and immoral choices, making them rich in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/190 "2020-06-04T18:17:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > When? Next week? > > Only that I do not think that they are. Arresting this one guy and his cronies over his public execution is barely a start in addressing the systemic mistreatment and excessive use by law enforcement. > > I ask you this, had Floyd not died, would we have heard about it? Would we be talking about it at all. For every Floyd out there, there are thousands who have endured the same humiliating and dehumanizing treatment. > > Police brutality is police brutality. If you see it in your neighborhood, then you probably have a bit of solidarity with someone else experiencing it, even on the other side of the country. > > BTW, where are you from, so I can determine if you have any business addressing the ills of society in New York or in San Francisco. > > So you are blaming them not only for how their environment affects them, but also for the existence of that environment as well. > > It’s not a culture. It’s not an identity. It is a reaction to poverty and systemic racism. > > Heh. > > So, you are not willing to help then. > > Someone is drowning, and you say, “I’d come help you out, but first, I need you to acknowledge this inflammation I have between my toes.” > > Agreed. Glad you worked that out. > > So, how do we solve the issue of generational poverty that has afflicted millions of our fellow citizens? > You want a list? It’s never ever going to be enough, or fast enough, or strong enough, or fair enough for some folks. But for most folks, there is enough. With the 24 hr news cycle , everything is about race (even when it’s not) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/191 "2020-06-04T18:33:50Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > What is associated with black culture that isn’t associated with poverty? I can think of 2 or so. And thus you’re demonstrating a really significant part of the problem – society and culture has taught you only to associate negative things with “black culture”. But there are tons of other things – great music, great food, rich traditions of art and writing, just as a few examples. But you’ve been taught to associate negative things with black culture – maybe not taught explicitly, but implicitly. And it started long before we had crime or poverty statistics. Even in the 1800s, when white people were far, far more dangerous (probably orders of magnitude more dangerous) to black people, statistically speaking, then the reverse, it was ingrained in American culture that black people, and especially black men, were dangerous and violent. That wasn’t because of anything black people did – it was because such myths were necessary to justify slavery and other vile mistreatment. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/192 "2020-06-04T18:37:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And thus you’re demonstrating a really significant part of the problem – society and culture has taught you only to associate negative things with “black culture”. But there are tons of other things – great music, great food, rich traditions of art and writing, just as a few examples. But you’ve been taught to associate negative things with black culture – maybe not taught explicitly, but implicitly. And it started long before we had crime or poverty statistics. Even in the 1800s, when white people were far, far more dangerous (probably orders of magnitude more dangerous) to black people, statistically speaking, then the reverse, it was ingrained in American culture that black people, and especially black men, were dangerous and violent. That wasn’t because of anything black people did – it was because such myths were necessary to justify slavery and other vile mistreatment. I don’t ONLY do anything but when discussing the problems that plague a society, yes, we will continue to discuss ONLY the negative things that help perpetuate the negative things … If we want to have a discussion about cultures and the positive and negatives of all of them, let’s start a new thread but THIS one is discussing the issues we have , and the fact that some part of the cultures that surround areas are partly to blame. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/193 "2020-06-04T18:44:26Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I don’t ONLY do anything but when discussing the problems that plague a society, yes, we will continue to discuss ONLY the negative things that help perpetuate the negative things … > > If we want to have a discussion about cultures and the positive and negatives of all of them, let’s start a new thread but THIS one is discussing the issues we have , and the fact that some part of the cultures that surround areas are partly to blame. The cultures “to blame” are the racist ones, and the cultures of the institutions that discriminate and treat people unfairly. Black Americans are just human. No more and no less. They react to situations just like other humans do. They make decisions just like other humans do. There’s nothing wrong with black people, or black culture, and there never has been (which doesn’t excuse bad behavior – I’m speaking in generalities and big groups). There was nothing wrong with black people or black culture in 1850; in 1900; in 1925; in 1950; in 1975… and there’s nothing wrong with black people or black culture today. But there was something wrong with American institutions and systems, in 1850, 1900, etc., and I hold that there still are things wrong. Do you really think it’s a coincidence that the two groups in America – black Americans and Native Americans – that were treated, by far, the worst, by the American government and institutions, are at the very bottom of all these statistical indicators? Does that really seem like coincidence to you? It doesn’t to me. Seems to me like historical maltreatment and present circumstances are intimately linked. If so, then it’s not black people that are the problem – it’s our systems that are the problem. Just like in 1850, just like in 1925, just like in 1950. Now isn’t special. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/194 "2020-06-04T18:45:14Z")
So why do you think black people just don’t fix themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/195 "2020-06-04T19:19:27Z")
Ok guys. I think I’ve had enough of the racist aspects in this thread. Let’s dial that back from this point forward or bad things will occur. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/196 "2020-06-04T19:57:53Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Ok guys. I think I’ve had enough of the racist aspects in this thread. Let’s dial that back from this point forward or bad things will occur. Can you clarify? I think this has been a pretty good discussion. I don’t think anyone was accused of being racist. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/197 "2020-06-04T20:20:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Agreed. > > I’m not sure what you are saying unless you are saying that, since it is possible that someone will break a law if I exercise my rights, then I should be forbidden to do so. > > I didn’t ignore any part of what you wrote. I just did not agree that your democrat bashing is as relevant as you make it out to be. > > I reiterate, if there is a specific clause that protects dirty cops, then lets discuss it and deal with it. I can only assume that you are not actually making the ridiculous assertion that democratic politicians bless such a clause. There is no specific clause protecting dirty cops, of course. Dirty cops use the same protections every member has against capricious firings and discipline. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > What you are trying to get me to believe here, is that if there is one cop that says, “Yes, I saw that officer violate this citizen’s civil rights when he shoved a screwdriver into his ass.” the union would have a clause in their contract, blessed by the democrats in office, that would prevent discipline and removal. > > What I am telling you is that the way it plays out is that a citizen says, “This officer violated my civil rights when he shoved a screwdriver into my ass.” and his partner that witnessed the whole thing says, “Nu-uh, that didn’t happen.” What do you suggest the union do at that point? At that point? Was ‘the union’ there as a witness? Of course not. Police officers are given the benefit of the doubt, so other witnesses and/ or video is very helpful. If the members of the union are embarassed by that conduct, they can try to make an issue of it in the next negotiation- but I say from personal experience that there is insulation between leaders of my union and us feets on the grouns, and going against their ‘suggestions’ is a good way to never be a streward, never be a delegate, never have your voice heard unless you agree. I could make a topic on this elsewhere. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > It sounds like you want to make it so that any officer can be fired for a citizen complaint, even if not corroborated. This could be a good thing, were it not for the fact that some citizen’s complaints would be taken much more seriously than others. > > It would be great if all jobs had to go through actual steps to fire someone, rather than just kicking them off because of petty or political reasons. That people tend to be lazy and not want to follow these steps isn’t really a justification for eliminating the entire system of worker protections. > > I also have no illusion that anti-union activity would stop with police, but that the police union issue is used as a wedge to try to justify a distrust of all unions. > > I also am under no illusion that, even if you got rid of the police union entirely, even if you got rid of all unions, it would not solve the problems of police brutality. I don’t know where you got the notion I would support any of that. Democrat bashing? Okay, I’ll include Willie Brown and his influence during some union negotiations. In another topic. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/198 "2020-06-04T20:32:43Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I dispute this contention. Based on what? > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I suggest that nearly all Republican positions are situational and negotiable. Just as they claim to be fiscally conservative and then blow out the deficit when they find it convenient, you’ll never find a Republican union buster getting tough on police unions. Yeah, we probably have common ground or at least a middle ground here. This does not excuse your first “dispute”. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Republicans only have one unwavering principle, which is serving white power and white property, and their sole praxis is taking over the judiciary and law enforcement organs. That’s a wide, wide brush there. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/199 "2020-06-04T20:40:29Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Ok guys. I think I’ve had enough of the racist aspects in this thread. Let’s dial that back from this point forward or bad things will occur. racial, not racist (at least I would hope not) ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/200 "2020-06-06T13:43:26Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > What, exactly, do you find objectionable in the seminar in the linked video? If you are unfamiliar with Grossman, one of his core beliefs is that human beings are inherently reluctant to kill other human beings. I, personally, don’t believe that. All you have to do is look at the homicide rate in the U.S. I’ve investigated plenty of killings that fly in the face of this theory. What he is saying in that video is that, if you are not prepared to take a life in self-defense or defense of another, you might want to consider other employment. To intersperse bad police shootings with his seminar is BS. The video clearly implies that the officer who killed Castine did so because he went to Grossman’s training. There is absolutely zero evidence for that. The “Warrior” mindset is not what you pretend it to be. The idea is that, when the time comes, be prepared to give it your all and to not go down without fighting to your last breath. Be prepared both mentally and physically. > > The same thing applies to the mantra “Going home at the end of your shift is rule number one.” In context, this doesn’t mean “Everyone’s safety is secondary to yours” but rather, “The suspect’s safety is secondary to yours.” If anyone has a problem with that (and some people do) I don’t know what else to say. Officers put the safety of the general public before their own thousands of times every single day. > > I’ll grant that some officers take the warrior thing too far and are wannabe Delta Force guys. As an academy instructor, I can say that this trait doesn’t usually show itself at the recruit level. Even if it did, getting rid of a recruit is no easy task. Everything must be documented with all the is dotted and ts crossed. We have some recruits who we KNOW will be a problem once they get out there but, unless they commit some serious violation they will probably graduate. All we can do is warn the hiring agency. Fortunately, in my state departments can fire new officers during their first year, basically, without cause and it happens. Especially in smaller (less than 100 officers) departments where administration has a better handle on what is going on on the front lines. But if the new is politically connected… And in large agencies they can get lost in the sauce if the Field Training Program isn’t up to snuff - which is often the case. > > We try to instill in the recruits that they are not going to war and the public is not the enemy. But those who end up in high crime areas may face a different reality - humping 911 calls one after another where arrests for violent crimes (including DV) and drug dealing are, if not a daily occurence, all too common. Constant exposure to these highly emotional contacts where they are viewed as the enemy by at least one of the parties takes its toll and officers become hardened. > > Add to all that the conflicting demands “Keep your cool. Show no emotion. Treat everyone the same” while, at the same time, “Have a heart. Can’t you give ME a break? Don’t be so robot-like!” > > Pretty much everyone agrees that we need to do a better job policing. The devil is in the details. This will very likely be my last post to the SDMB for at least quite some time, so **MikeF** if you respond I’m very unlikely to answer. My new job has me incredibly busy and while I have time to occasionally come and read some threads of interest, I clearly do not have the time to write meaningful responses. I will still be lurking and reading so if you want to reach me, then please feel free to PM me. Hopefully, in time I can return and participate more fully. So a few things. 1. I’m familiar with Grossman in so far as having read his book “On Killing”. 2. I’m very sure that Grossman is a very good trainer of soldiers. But police officers are not soldiers, and they should not be going into situations thinking like soldiers. Grossman says things like “We. Are. At. War.” War with who? With the citizenry? 3. In other words, the idea of a police officer as a “warrior” is inherently flawed and creates a flawed mindset in the minds of police. 4. If police officers want to be considered like soldiers, then they need to abandon this idea of job #1 is to come home safely from your shift. To a soldier, the first priority is to the mission, and not your life. A police officer needs to accept that they are putting themselves are tremendous risk, and they might need to accept being put at a disadvantage from taking a moment to properly consider what they’re doing. And yes, that might cost them their life, but that’s the job. Soldiers follow rules of engagement, and the rules sometimes get them killed or causes them undo stress. In Bosnia, peacekeeper ROEs were such that they could only return fire if they confirmed they were receiving direct fire. The enemy realized this and started shooting over the heads of troops, and caused a lot of PTSD in the troops because having shoots going “near” you but not enough to be considered direct fire is very stressful. Rwanda was another mission where the rules basically were “You’re going to witness atrocities and be able to do nothing about it. Thanks for your service.” So if police want to be soldiers (they shouldn’t, the very idea is flawed), then they need to strictly follow the ROEs, which will put them at a disadvantage. And if they don’t follow the ROEs, then like a soldier, they face justice. Not a slap on the wrist. Not a “I was afraid for my life.” You face justice. 5. Now, obviously the implications of #4 is there will be a lot of people who won’t want to be cops under those conditions. And that’s ok. Don’t. 6. But cops want it both ways. They want to be militarized (to mitigate their losses), and not have to accept everything that comes with the responsibility of militarization. Anyway, it has been a lot of fun. As I said above, I’ll be lurking and reading. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661.md?page=11)