# Some suggestions regarding the situation around George Floyd's death. Are these ideas simplistic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2020, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661 "2020-05-29T12:57:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/121 "2020-06-02T04:14:16Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I agree he didn’t intend to kill him. That’s my point, it was personal, even the eyewitnesses in the initial videos thought it looked personal. Think of the difference on how you treat people you don’t know vs. those you do. People can read that and they did. I guess that once I found out that they worked at bouncers at the same place, I just can’t get worked up about all of this. > > This fact may have help at first, but its out of control now. You don’t know if it is true, but you still declare it to be a fact. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/122 "2020-06-02T04:18:43Z")
You’re not going to let some random person push your buttons to the point that you kill them. Someone you know, well yes that happens all the time. Passion killing they call it I think ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/123 "2020-06-02T04:24:32Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Yeah, who saw _that_ coming? > > [https://www.fox9.com/video/689319](https://www.fox9.com/video/689319) > > It sounds like Chauvin (and other police) stayed outside, while non-police like George Floyd worked inside. See 5:45 point in that interview: they worked for the same boss but didn’t probably know each other. > > Very interesting interview. Come on guy, have you never been at a club? The fact that she claims no interaction front to back is straight BS. The have to interact with each other to do the job. Not to mention the fact the story is changing now. Oh yes they both worked here but there was no interaction. Of course she is trying to cover her ass. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/124 "2020-06-02T04:27:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You don’t know if it is true, but you still declare it to be a fact. :rolleyes: It’s not a fact that they worked at the same place? ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/125 "2020-06-02T04:35:36Z")
Look clubs will definitely have indoor and out door bouncers. The outdoor ones will just exclude anyone they don’t want in the club right there, but they can’t get too crazy with that since they have to make money. So sometimes they let people in that wind up causing a problem and have to be bounced from the inside. Two layers of bouncers. If you really believe the inside/outside bouncers don’t talk to each other, both before and after work, or while someone is being bounced from in to out, then you are seriously mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/126 "2020-06-02T04:47:11Z")
Going even further, why do you think cops moonlight as bouncers anyway. It’s because they carry that air of authority off duty and it’s assumed the blue wall will protect any bad deeds. So any club owner loves to have off duty cops outside. They don’t like them inside because it gives a bad vibe to the place for the customers. This whole thing is a corruption issue. The owner in that video knows that and is lying to cover her ass. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/127 "2020-06-02T05:00:36Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Look clubs will definitely have indoor and out door bouncers. The outdoor ones will just exclude anyone they don’t want in the club right there, but they can’t get too crazy with that since they have to make money. So sometimes they let people in that wind up causing a problem and have to be bounced from the inside. Two layers of bouncers. > > If you really believe the inside/outside bouncers don’t talk to each other, both before and after work, or while someone is being bounced from in to out, then you are seriously mistaken. I’m still not clear on why exactly it would matter if they really “knew” each other or not. Because if the implications that this murder was either (a) premeditated or (b) a crime of opportunity, then it was a damn clumsy way to go about it. I can think of much better, more practical ways, for a police officer to commit murder, even on camera and in broad daylight, than engaging in a minutes long struggle. I’d list them, but then you’d have something else to pick at as a distraction, rather than focus on what you really should be doing: coming up with more than mere supposition to support your own claim. At this point, the best you can really come up with as far as motive, if you really want to play the skeptic (as opposed to jumping to some conclusion of ingrained racism or being a loose cannon in general) is “I don’t know.” Not “oh, well, I see they worked at a club together, so there must have been some shady shit going on, they must both have been involved in it, and the former officer must have used this as an opportunity to tie up a loose end.” ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/128 "2020-06-02T05:11:51Z")
I’m saying it was personal, not racial, that this case is not an example of systemic abuse of black people by police. I’m saying it was a personal killing where both individuals knew each other. In other words the way most crimes are. The fact that it wasn’t investigated as such goes into the real issue which is corruption. There is a huge difference here. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/129 "2020-06-02T05:29:46Z")
I’m just guessing on the money being the source of the beef. That is really all I have to go on right now. I can see getting and using a fake one once. You’ll be informed its fake and sent on your way, but coming back in and trying to pass another or the same is a bit over the top for me. I’ve seen some posters here demeaning cashiers. They touch money everyday, a fake would have to be really good to pass and have them not notice. I’ve handled fake money. It’s all in the feel. Real bills have cotton woven in, it give a certain feeling on the fingertips, which are highly sensitive. You can make it look good but it’s really hard to fake that feeling. Anyone that deals with cash regularly can instantly tell. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/130 "2020-06-02T05:38:41Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I’m saying it was personal, not racial, that this case is not an example of systemic abuse of black people by police. I’m saying it was a personal killing where both individuals knew each other. In other words the way most crimes are. The fact that it wasn’t investigated as such goes into the real issue which is corruption. > > There is a huge difference here. Why? Not why would he do it for personal reasons related to his outside employment (though that’s still a big question mark of its own), but why are you so confident at this early juncture that it’s necessarily or even most probably personal? The mere fact that they had overlapping periods of employment at the same club is not enough, particularly in light of how/under what circumstances under which the murder (okay, just to be a good skeptic and all, I’ll just this once say “alleged” murder) was carried out. ETA: > [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I’m just guessing on the money being the source of the beef. That is really all I have to go on right now. I can see getting and using a fake one once. You’ll be informed its fake and sent on your way, but coming back in and trying to pass another or the same is a bit over the top for me. I’ve seen some posters here demeaning cashiers. They touch money everyday, a fake would have to be really good to pass and have them not notice. > > I’ve handled fake money. It’s all in the feel. Real bills have cotton woven in, it give a certain feeling on the fingertips, which are highly sensitive. You can make it look good but it’s really hard to fake that feeling. Anyone that deals with cash regularly can instantly tell. So it’s your position that Floyd either wasn’t very good at recognizing counterfeits, or he wasn’t very good at passing them off? Now that I’ll grant as likely true. One or the other, possibly both. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/131 "2020-06-02T05:54:39Z")
The fact that it is early, but everyone is already acting. My position is that the conclusion was jumped, people saw a white cop and a black man and assumed it has to be racial. I don’t see that, I see two guys that worked together getting into a beef that got out of hand. The reason why is because of passion. The corruption comes from the fact that PD was willing to overlook a connection that they would have been all over if it was two regular people, white or black. This is what should be protested here, and I think some people get that and are out there for that reason. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/132 "2020-06-02T05:56:49Z")
That reason would of course change the whole dynamic of the protests, its something that can be fought and changed. The protesters can never win now. You can’t fight racism. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/133 "2020-06-02T06:02:38Z")
But here’s the thing. Even if we want to play the ultra-skeptic card of “there’s insufficient evidence at this time to point to racism as a cause in this specific incident” or something like that… There’s really no more evidence in favor of your alternative. Which should lead us to “I don’t know” if you want to go that route, not “it was personal.” As to the protests, even if we play “ultra-skeptic,” could it not be fairly said that systemic or institutional racism is a problem in this country, that it often manifests in police and other justice system interactions with people of color, and people could be said to be protesting all that with good cause, irrespective of which specific incident sparked this latest round of protests? ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/134 "2020-06-02T06:10:48Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Why? Not why would he do it for personal reasons related to his outside employment (though that’s still a big question mark of its own), but why are you so confident at this early juncture that it’s necessarily or even most probably personal? > > The mere fact that they had overlapping periods of employment at the same club is not enough, particularly in light of how/under what circumstances under which the murder (okay, just to be a good skeptic and all, I’ll just this once say “alleged” murder) was carried out. > > ETA: > So it’s your position that Floyd either wasn’t very good at recognizing counterfeits, or he wasn’t very good at passing them off? Now that I’ll grant as likely true. One or the other, possibly both. Good has noting to do with it. If you are a low level in that kind of thing, you are the one that has to go to the bodegas to try to break them, its your ass on the line. You go to enough of them then yes, eventually get someone new that thinks its real. You make a small purchase and get back real money for nothing. Most would try to pass it off in a big chunk. Real bills with the fakes. I really can’t believe I have to explain this, my knowledge is form like 25 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/135 "2020-06-02T06:20:44Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I really can’t believe I have to explain this, > > … You don’t. Either with the “alleged” (here I’ll use it again, just for kicks) counterfeiting or the motive for the murder (like I said upthread, I’d use it once). I see all the same dots you do, I just don’t see the connecting line to “and therefore this was personal, related to their mutual participation in a corrupt enterprise” or words to that effect. ETA: I also don’t see how it invalidates the protests sparked by this incident. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/136 "2020-06-02T06:21:06Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > But here’s the thing. Even if we want to play the ultra-skeptic card of “there’s insufficient evidence at this time to point to racism as a cause in this specific incident” or something like that… > … Racism or no, it was a cop gone out of control. I think that few of the cop on black incidents are racism. But they _are_ cops stepping over the line. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/137 "2020-06-02T06:24:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Racism or no, it was a cop gone out of control. > > I think that few of the cop on black incidents are racism. But they _are_ cops stepping over the line. Easier to \*believe, perhaps, if one does not believe that racism is anything other an individual failing. But I am not such a person. \*ETA: easier to believe and separate acts of “cops stepping over the line” independent of clear personal (on their part) bias from racism. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/138 "2020-06-02T06:31:47Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > But here’s the thing. Even if we want to play the ultra-skeptic card of “there’s insufficient evidence at this time to point to racism as a cause in this specific incident” or something like that… > > There’s really no more evidence in favor of your alternative. Which should lead us to “I don’t know” if you want to go that route, not “it was personal.” > > As to the protests, even if we play “ultra-skeptic,” could it not be fairly said that systemic or institutional racism is a problem in this country, that it often manifests in police and other justice system interactions with people of color, and people could be said to be protesting all that with good cause, irrespective of which specific incident sparked this latest round of protests? I’m a near 50 year old black man, so yes I think there is systemic racism in the US. I can also say that it’s not open season on black people like is being portrayed. We can fight and win the battle against systemic racism. As a personal example, I now live in a home in a neighborhood that I would have been barred from as a black man when I was born. This incident is most surely based on feelings and optics, not fact. As I’ve said it’s clear to me we are dealing with two gangsters, or at least wanna be’s. They both chose their lifestyles, and reaped the benefits when it was good. Now the whole country is supposed to take sides for one of these two assholes when things went go wrong. It’s a local police corruption issue. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/139 "2020-06-02T15:09:21Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > DH has an idea that we should come out and ask anyone “Do you think you could get made enough to kill someone who angered you?” and not on a test, but as a direct, face-to-face question. Anyone who comes up with a scenario, however far-fetched, where they could be driven to kill _through anger_, who hems and haws before coming up with a weak “No,” or who, gawd forbid, comes right out and answers in the affirmative, should be outta there. > > He (DH) thinks they should get asked as part of intake, and again _after_ completing initial training, when they’re feeling safer, and their guard is down. > > It sounds simplistic, but them, racism is pretty simplistic thinking. A lot of evil isn’t terribly complex. I think that may be a bit too restrictive on the initial screening. You certainly don’t want someone that is quick to anger, but I don’t know that you can find many that _can’t_ be made angry. Kill my family, kill my dog, try to kill me, I may be angry enough to wish to return the favor. But, that’s where training also comes in. Teach a cop to diffuse their own anger so that they can diffuse a situation. If circumstances are tense, then an angry cop will only make things worse. > [@split\_p\_j](#): > > You’re not going to let some random person push your buttons to the point that you kill them. Someone you know, well yes that happens all the time. Passion killing they call it I think Once again, kill, maybe not. But the acts of causal police brutality that I see all the time tells me that it does not require them to have a personal connection to humiliate and denigrate another human being. It looked like just another day at the office for officer POS as he held his knee to another man’s neck. I would be very surprised if this is the first time, or even only the 30th time he has done this. I don’t think that he expected Floyd to die, just to learn his place. What connection did [these officers](https://thefreethoughtproject.com/man-strip-searched-by-cops-road-side/) have with the perp? > [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Going even further, why do you think cops moonlight as bouncers anyway. It’s because they carry that air of authority off duty and it’s assumed the blue wall will protect any bad deeds. So any club owner loves to have off duty cops outside. They don’t like them inside because it gives a bad vibe to the place for the customers. They are also police, with some level of law enforcement capability, even off the clock. They get to carry guns, and they can make arrests that civilians would not. My understanding is that it is perfectly legal for a cop to have a security gig. > [@](#): > > This whole thing is a corruption issue. The owner in that video knows that and is lying to cover her ass. Now you are dragging her into this conspiracy of yours? > [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I’m saying it was personal, not racial, that this case is not an example of systemic abuse of black people by police. I’m saying it was a personal killing where both individuals knew each other. In other words the way most crimes are. The fact that it wasn’t investigated as such goes into the real issue which is corruption. > > There is a huge difference here. You have not established this, at all. And even in the case that officer POS had a grudge against Floyd, it is still the case that he would have felt entitled to torture Floyd in the middle of a public street because he was black. > [@split\_p\_j](#): > > That reason would of course change the whole dynamic of the protests, its something that can be fought and changed. The protesters can never win now. You can’t fight racism. They are protesting police brutality. That they feel, and I agree, that police brutality is heightened by racism and racial tensions does not invalidate their argument against police brutality. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661/140 "2020-06-02T16:11:36Z")
One big issue being overlooked is police unions, and this is partially why liberal politics are somewhat culpable. I am part of a union in San Francisco, a city which you may be aware prides itself on being progressive. Part of that, which they will also mention (although it isn’t entirely true), is that the City and County is very union friendly- and it is, I consider myself spoiled, work wise. Civil service rules make discipline difficult enough that most supervisors will not even try to hold direct reports accountable, partly because thy are not held accountable by their own supervisors. The only person I heard of getting fired was before my time and was caught stealing gas from one of the City’s fueling stations in front of a SFPD officer who was fueling their City vehicle. So it is not easy to do anything about subpar employees in general. And although my union is pretty much in the face of City managers and negotiators, this is multiplied by the public safety (PD and FD) union. The union contract with the city is full of “protection” for the employees which were agreed to by the employer (CCSF)! Politicians, particularly Democratic Party politicians, want the union endorsements that come with being overly accommodating to the union when drawing up contracts and MoUs. This is what bites them in the ass when you have police screw up- and even if police were all regular folks, they will still make mistakes- the true fuckups who give a department a bad reputation are still employed because it is too much trouble, both politically and procedurally, to fire them. Lazy agreements between local governments and police unions. THIS is what I believe is the main issue that needs to be fixed. But none of the Twitter or Instagram or Facebook or TV posts and stories consider this at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-suggestions-regarding-the-situation-around-george-floyds-death-are-these-ideas-simplistic/854661.md?page=8)