# Some WA pharmacists want to continue forcing their morality on customers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277 "2007-07-26T20:04:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/341 "2007-07-31T19:30:35Z")
[QUOTE=Zakalwe] Ummm… the references to morals that I could find all refer to the AMA resolution you noted in your first quote. I fail to see how the AMA could rule on Roe v. Wade. Your point remains unproven. Please provide a cite that Roe v. Wade creates the concept that ethics shouldn’t override morals. [/quote] > [@](#): > > most of these courts have agreed that the right of privacy, however based, is broad enough to cover the abortion decision If that’s not clear enough, feel free to read the cite. > [@](#): > > You keep referring to it as abortion. You keep using the ethics/morals of abortion as a justification for the position that the pharmacist is not obligated to assist and yet it’s not necessary to show that Plan B is actually causing an abortion? Seriously, I am completely puzzled here. See my earlier post regarding the common, pro-life belief that life begins at conception, not implantation. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/342 "2007-07-31T19:42:43Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] If that’s not clear enough, feel free to read the cite. See my earlier post regarding the common, pro-life belief that life begins at conception, not implantation. [/QUOTE] Oh, good. Then you’ll be able to show us some proof, or even a widely accepted hypothesis, by which Plan B prevents implantation, right? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/343 "2007-07-31T19:44:00Z")
I see others have jumped in and covered the comments directed to me. Thanks, **LFF** and **JayRx**. It’s nice to have a real pharmacist in the thread. What type of pharm work do you do? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/344 "2007-07-31T20:05:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **Shodan** said: > See my earlier post regarding the common, pro-life belief that life begins at conception, not implantation. Conception, meaning when the egg is fertilized, can’t even be detected. There’s no pregnancy at that point, and it’s estimated that 50 to 80% of all zygotes never implant. There’s no way to know whether each period a sexually active woman has is a normal period, or a zygote that didn’t implant. They don’t even make it past blastocyst stage. Implantation doesn’t happen until 6-12 days after fertilization, and what gets expelled if implantation doesn’t happen looks like this: [Six days post fertilization blastocyst](http://www.advancedfertility.com/pics/hatchingblast1.jpg) It’s so small it can’t be seen without a microscope, and it has at best 50-50 odds of ever reaching birth even in ideal conditions. Millions of these blastocysts die every year - and nobody even notices them at all. Even in nature they are highly expendable. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/345 "2007-07-31T20:12:43Z")
Awww… he looks just like his daddy! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/346 "2007-07-31T20:20:54Z")
If a pharmacy refuses to dispense birth control or the day after pill ,they should have to put a sign in the window. That way those who agree could deliberately go there . Others could go elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/347 "2007-07-31T20:47:32Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] If that’s not clear enough, feel free to read the cite. [/quote] You don’t think I read the cite? I actually read the cite years ago which is why I felt confident that you were not correct when you said that RvW established the belied that personal morals override ethics. What it said was that societal morals didn’t overcome an individual’s right to privacy and that a woman choosing an abortion feel within that right of privacy. Now, you can argue that it was a poor decision procedurally (as Bricker does) or you can argue that it was a poor decision based on the merits. What you can’t do is make a bunch of stuff up, the decision is a little too well known. You might as well say “Well, according to Roe v. Wade, a dropped pitch on a third strike does NOT allow the batter to attempt to take first.” > [@](#): > > See my earlier post regarding the common, pro-life belief that life begins at conception, not implantation. The professionals are dealing with this better than I can. If Plan B causes an abortion, so does regular birth control. Why aren’t the pharmacists screaming about that? ---
**Author:** ![JayRx1981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71e660/32.png) [@JayRx1981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JayRx1981)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/348 "2007-07-31T21:10:38Z")
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee] I see others have jumped in and covered the comments directed to me. Thanks, **LFF** and **JayRx**. It’s nice to have a real pharmacist in the thread. What type of pharm work do you do? [/QUOTE] I’m actually still an intern (I thought I mentioned that earlier–my apologies if I did not). I’m about to start (tomorrow to be exact) my last year, which is my clinical rotation year. Right now though, I intern in a grocery store pharmacy (and have experience in other retail settings). ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/349 "2007-07-31T23:04:40Z")
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee] I see others have jumped in and covered the comments directed to me. Thanks, **LFF** and **JayRx**. It’s nice to have a real pharmacist in the thread. What type of pharm work do you do? [/QUOTE] Too damn much. ETA: **Jay** , if you haven’t realized it yet, be sure that you’re about to. If you’re going into retail rx, go in and make your money and get the fuck out to a hospital or somewhere that actually respects your medical training. ---
**Author:** ![JayRx1981](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71e660/32.png) [@JayRx1981](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JayRx1981)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/350 "2007-07-31T23:47:06Z")
[QUOTE=ladyfoxfyre] Too damn much. ETA: **Jay** , if you haven’t realized it yet, be sure that you’re about to. If you’re going into retail rx, go in and make your money and get the fuck out to a hospital or somewhere that actually respects your medical training. [/QUOTE] Actually, my plan is to work a couple of years at retail to pay down my student loans, then enter med school (preferably an allopathic school since I have one of those local to me). I’m crazy, I know. 😃 But thanks for the advice. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/351 "2007-08-01T10:00:09Z")
I can see the ire over pharmacists not dispensing it, but do pharmacies have to stock Plan B? If they don’t have to, but they do, do they then retain the right to not dispense it? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/352 "2007-08-01T10:22:40Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Siege, well then I suppose it is due to your lack of sloth that I am thus edified. Thank you. I concede. [/QUOTE] Thank you for your concession, sir. While you’re at it, would you mind withdrawing the insinuations you made against a certain gentleman which were as insulting as they were unfounded? **Shodan** , you’ve repeatedly claimed Plan B is an abortifacient. Do you have anything to say about the information from Princeton I linked to? Should these pharmacists who refuse to dispense Plan B also refuse to dispense birth control pills? If so, why don’t we hear about that? If you’ve already answered these questions, please accept my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/353 "2007-08-01T12:49:25Z")
Your own cite says it best - > [@](#): > > It’s also possible that emergency contraceptive pills work after fertilization, making it impossible for the fertilized egg to implant in your uterus I think we have reached the point where people are posting without having read the thread, and repeating myself would just make it longer. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/354 "2007-08-01T13:07:31Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Your own cite says it best - I think we have reached the point where people are posting without having read the thread, and repeating myself would just make it longer. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] What does that have to do with aborting a pregnancy? Preventing =! aborting ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/355 "2007-08-01T15:04:48Z")
> [@](#): > > **Shodan** said: > I think we have reached the point where people are posting without having read the thread, and repeating myself would just make it longer. I know you’re not a doctor, but come on man, it’s been repeated and repeated in the simplest of lay terms hundreds of times in these threads, which you always participate in. Prior to implantation, there is no pregnancy. Abortion is the termination, either spontaneously or deliberately, of a pregnancy. Since pregnancy does not exist prior to implantation, neither can abortion. The failure to implant of a zygote is not an abortion. It’s not a miscarriage. It’s not the end of a pregnancy because **pregnancy doesn’t start until implantation occurs** , and there is only a 50-50 shot even under ideal conditions that implantation of a zygote will happen and a pregnancy will result. No implantation, no pregnancy. Do you understand it yet? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/356 "2007-08-01T16:33:26Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Your own cite says it best - > [@](#): > > It’s also possible that emergency contraceptive pills work after fertilization, making it impossible for the fertilized egg to implant in your uterus I think we have reached the point where people are posting without having read the thread, and repeating myself would just make it longer. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] We are indeed talking in circles since that same website says **“no matter when you take emergency contraception, it will not cause an abortion.”** If you follow the link on that site labelled “Emergency Contraceptive Pills (“morning after pills”)” [you come to this web page](http://ec.princeton.edu/info/ecp.html) which makes it clear that emergency contraception is made up of the same hormone used in conventional birth control pills. Is using progestin, the hormone used in both Plan B and in conventional birth control pills less moral when used in Plan B than in conventional birth control pills? Should pharmacists object to dispensing one, but not the other? Is using Plan B more immoral than using conventional birth control pills? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/357 "2007-08-01T16:52:21Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] No implantation, no pregnancy. Do you understand it yet? [/QUOTE] **catsix** , I absolutely, 100% agree with you, don’t get me wrong. But **Shodan** ’s response to that once already in the thread was that some people consider fertilization the “beginning of life” if not pregnancy, and that was the point at which they would consider it immoral to interfere. To which my reply remains: prove it. Prove that Plan B makes it “impossible for the fertilized egg to implant in your uterus.” In fact, you don’t even have to prove it, just come up with a logical, plausible hypothesis by which the same hormone which \*allows \*for implantation and maintains the uterine lining during a pregnancy somehow magically makes the uterine lining impregnable when taken in a pill. This is what “they” can’t do, and what makes the rest of us who understand female fertility want to stick a fork in their eyes. “It’s also possible” is not proof. It’s not widely accepted in medical circles. It’s one of those weaselly statements which means nothing. It’s also possible that global warming is caused entirely by badgers. But I don’t think it’s bloody likely, given what I know of science and the habits of badgerdom. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/358 "2007-08-01T17:08:12Z")
> [@](#): > > **WhyNot** said: > But Shodan’s response to that once already in the thread was that some people consider fertilization the “beginning of life” if not pregnancy, and that was the point at which they would consider it immoral to interfere. And that means we should **Shodan** get away with posting factually inaccurate information as if it is correct? Bullshit. He doesn’t get a pass because of his wacko fundy religious belief that every zygote is sacred. It is an absolute medical fact that there is no pregnancy prior to implantation. It is also an absolute medical fact that the Plan B pill cannot cause the termination of a pregnancy. I don’t see any reason why what ‘some people consider’ should be given any kind of weight when it flies in the face of actual **fact**. He’s been saying Plan B ends a pregnancy all through this thread, and he’s full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/359 "2007-08-01T17:27:46Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] And that means we should **Shodan** get away with posting factually inaccurate information as if it is correct? [/QUOTE] Nope. It means we should continue to correct his errors and supply more accurate information for the benefit of other readers. Just like I’ve been doing, and you’ve been doing, and lots of posters have been doing. Disengage the claws, please. We’re on the same side this time. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2007, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277/360 "2007-08-01T17:35:33Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] He doesn’t get a pass because of his wacko fundy religious belief that every zygote is sacred. [/QUOTE] But. But. But. But, you don’t understand. The God of Gods, the Almighty Creator of the Universe took time out from demanding that the Hebrews sacrifice animals (and the occasional first born son) to tell him that. How can science compete? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-wa-pharmacists-want-to-continue-forcing-their-morality-on-customers/413277.md?page=19)