# Some War Criminals are less criminal **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 2, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034 "2005-02-02T20:28:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/41 "2005-02-03T12:10:01Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Still no attempt to explain why some ‘war criminals’ go to jail and other ‘war criminals’ go to US Senate. > > Oh, well… It seems some people took your question as what is known as _a rant_ rather than as a serious inquiry or attempt at debate. Can you see how that happened? Hm? Or is this little zephyr-against-the-gale post just an attempt to declare your view vindicated? Do tell. It’ll be funny. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/42 "2005-02-03T14:06:15Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Still no attempt to explain why some ‘war criminals’ go to jail and other ‘war criminals’ go to US Senate. > > Oh, well… How about a comment on the 15 year old rape thingy? You know something like “whoops my bad” ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/43 "2005-02-03T14:14:39Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Still no attempt to explain why some ‘war criminals’ go to jail and other ‘war criminals’ go to US Senate. > > Oh, well… You do realize that you’re nothing more than a sad little joke, and that’s why there have been 40ish posts in this thread doing nothing but chastising and mocking you, right? -Joe, just checking ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/44 "2005-02-03T14:32:26Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > No, but people away from frontlines must at least try to understand what happens at real war, before they start passing judgements. > > Soldiers in Abu Ghraib crossed lines in treatment of prisoners in “fog of war”. Lt. Kerry was shooting civilians in Vietnam in “fog of war”. Is _that_ where you were going? Well, you’re being a big dummy. Actions inside a secure prison facility are not the “fog of war,” they’re more like the "fog of [Riker’s](http://correctionhistory.org/html/chronicl/nycdoc/html/jailist1.html). And we expect our prison guards, here or in Iraq, not to torture the inmates. Yes, even if they’re bad inmates. Now, there is a shred of a kernel of a point in your rant. For example, there were some on this board who seemed ready to send [the Marine who shot a wounded insurgent, apparently in the belief that he was faking his injury as others had done,](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6496898/) off to prison before an investigation or trial. One might reasonably call them out on their hypocrisy. But even then, the way to do it is _not_ to allege that then-LT Kerry engaged in war crimes – he did not. Rather, remind the person that Kerry engaged in the actions he claimed he did and that they were _not_ war crimes and ask by what definition this young Marine did anything different. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/45 "2005-02-03T14:36:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Still no attempt to explain why some ‘war criminals’ go to jail and other ‘war criminals’ go to US Senate. You have failed to provide a valid example of a war criminal who has gone to the US Senate. Provide one, and then we’ll talk. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/46 "2005-02-03T15:08:10Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Still no attempt to explain why some ‘war criminals’ go to jail and other ‘war criminals’ go to US Senate. > > Oh, well… Or about why we don’t impeach a war criminal who happens to be sitting in the White House. Before you chime in with “what war crime?”, I’ll lay it out for you. Making aggressive war against a nation that has done nothing to you, represents no threat to you, and, it turns out, doesn’t even represent much of a threat to its neighbors, is a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/47 "2005-02-03T18:34:44Z")
> [@Manhattan](#): > > Actions inside a secure prison facility are not the “fog of war,” they’re more like the "fog of [Riker’s](http://correctionhistory.org/html/chronicl/nycdoc/html/jailist1.html). You really need to take off your rosy lenses and listen to what your lefty friends are telling you. “Iraq is not New Jersey! Iraq is not a safe country whatsoever! Iraq is a breeding ground for terrorists! Insurgents rule the countryside and strike everywhere at will! Nothing is safe in Iraq! Even strategic road to Baghdad airport is not safe!” That’s on the outside the jail. What’s inside? The jail is overcrowded and not with the best elements of society: there are mostly criminals and enemy combatants. We know there were revolts. We know that resistance fighters held there managed to obtain firearms and start shoot-outs with the guards. So, murderous chaos on the outside, murderous chaos on the inside, you call it safe and secure facility? > [@Manhattan](#): > > And we expect our prison guards, here or in Iraq, not to torture the inmates. Yes, even if they’re bad inmates. And I expect gorgeous beauties to pile up swooning at my feet everywhere I go. Fact is, real people thrown in meat-grinder of war don’t always perform up to our expectations back at home. > [@World Eater](#): > > How about a comment on the 15 year old rape thingy? Well, there was a few references to a single source, citing one eye-witness, namely someone Kasim Mehaddi Hilas. I am not personally acquainted with most trustworthy Kasim, but if you are willing to vouch for his veracity, I’ll take your word without further doubt. Let me ask you, however, why do you find one single Kasim trustworthy and two hundred Swift boat veterans liars? > [@El\_Kabong](#): > > You have failed to provide a valid example of a war criminal who has gone to the US Senate. Provide one, and then we’ll talk. Well, if John Kerry is too weasely for you, here’s [one man who came clean](http://slate.msn.com/id/105552). ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/48 "2005-02-03T18:42:16Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > The jail is overcrowded and not with the best elements of society: there are mostly criminals and enemy combatants. We know there were revolts. We know that resistance fighters held there managed to obtain firearms and start shoot-outs with the guards. Son of a gun! You’re right! U.S. jails are not filled with criminals. There has never been a revolt in a U.S. jail. There has never been an armed criminal in a U.S. jail. How can you be so fucking stupid and still have enough brain cells to keep your autonomic nervous system running? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/49 "2005-02-03T20:03:07Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Son of a gun! You’re right! U.S. jails are not filled with criminals. There has never been a revolt in a U.S. jail. There has never been an armed criminal in a U.S. jail. > > How can you be so fucking stupid and still have enough brain cells to keep your autonomic nervous system running? You got me there! Everyone knows how free of abuse US prisons are! ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/50 "2005-02-03T20:15:59Z")
**New Iskander** , you might want to back up and take a run at this again, because you’ve lost me completely. Who exactly are you mad at here? Are you mad at a) John Kerry b) Bob Kerrey c) unnamed ‘lefties’ d) the US military for prosecuting some of the guards at Abu Graib or e) none of the above? Once we’ve established that, then we can move on to what it is exactly you are mad about, because frankly you are not making an enormous amount of sense here. Please just say what it is that’s upsetting you, without all the metaphorical filigree and hypothetical questions, 'cause it appears you’re getting lost in your own rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/51 "2005-02-03T20:17:53Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > You got me there! Everyone knows how free of abuse US prisons are! Apparently less then Iraqi prisons are. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/52 "2005-02-03T20:18:00Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > You got me there! Everyone knows how free of abuse US prisons are! And when exposed, the abusers are investigated, tried, convicted, and sent to jail just like the criminals they are. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/53 "2005-02-03T20:44:55Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > That’s on the outside the jail. What’s inside? The jail is overcrowded and not with the best elements of society: there are mostly criminals and enemy combatants. [Wrong. Estimates are that 70 to 90 percent were innocent.](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/books/chapters/0123-1st-danner.html?ex=1107579600&en=6a5b3d92d7ee6af8&ei=5070) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/54 "2005-02-03T20:47:17Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > …Who exactly are you mad at here? Not mad. Just think those soldiers deserve understanding. Not an excuse or exoneration, not even sentence reduction. Just understanding. Kinda like ultimate justice, you know? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/55 "2005-02-03T20:52:24Z")
> [@Manhattan](#): > > Actions inside a secure prison facility are not the “fog of war,” they’re more like the "fog of Riker’s. > [@New Iskander](#): > > You really need to take off your rosy lenses and listen to what your lefty friends are telling you. Since when has **Manny** become a “lefty”? Or is this simply another sign that you’re _wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy_ off the deep end there, **Isk?** ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/56 "2005-02-03T20:54:08Z")
In fairness, I do have lefty friends. :😭: I’m so ashamed! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/57 "2005-02-03T20:56:39Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > In fairness, I do have lefty friends. :😭: I’m so ashamed! 😉 The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/58 "2005-02-03T20:57:34Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > In fairness, I do have lefty friends. :😭: I’m so ashamed! 😉 And you’re apparently falling for their lies, deceits, and evil Wormtonguery. I’ll bet you didn’t know you were so feeble-minded. Only **NI** can save you! Don’t forget to thank him. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/59 "2005-02-03T21:06:29Z")
Thanks, **NI**! Thanks to you, I now see the deception of my lefty friends and can now see the world clearly according to Alexander Cockburn. Wait. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034/60 "2005-02-03T21:10:36Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Since when has **Manny** become a “lefty”? > > Or is this simply another sign that you’re _wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy_ off the deep end there, **Isk?** Me? Never! Just a Uniter, is all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-war-criminals-are-less-criminal/288034.md?page=4)