# Some well-educated ideas that should unite the world against them Muslim terrorists **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 6, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586 "2002-06-06T01:48:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/81 "2002-06-10T12:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\ ***Efrem** dear, apparently this all goes back to the “Arafat Chips” thread, where you had this to say about rock-throwers: > > “People see those Kids as heros, if a country invaded the USA and Americans were protesting this way you would concider them heros too.” > > So here’s the quote you asked for. Now what? \*\* Aside that fact that in this quote I didn’t assert **my** opinion of rock throwers, but my opinion of how Americans would react toward American children if they threw rocks at soliders of an oppressive occupating nation. I asked for a quote where I called Terrorists “heros” (as you claimed). Please, where is that quote? ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/82 "2002-06-10T13:03:57Z")
**jjimm** , **TwistofFate** Do you have a door to my brain (ala “Being John Malkavitch”)? 😃 **Coldfire** Although, I did not understand what **gobear** had said in his post, your answer seemed to be on the nose. Thank you everyone, those posts were very nice in clarifying my position (this thread always can use more clarification). ;j ---
**Author:** ![ApeHead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/977dab/32.png) [@ApeHead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ApeHead)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/83 "2002-06-10T13:23:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jaakko \* > \*\*Why “homicide bomber”? I’ve noticed at least Fox News using the term, and it sounds like a new PC word to replace the apparently too-neutral “suicide bomber”. \*\* I too wondered about this term. I suppose it is supposed to differentiate bombers intending to kill from, say, bombers who mean to amuse, or possibly bombers who mean to lull their opponents to sleep. 🙂 Silly me. Until I read/heard of this new term I thought all bombers were “homicide bombers.” ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/84 "2002-06-10T13:59:29Z")
**Coldfire** , you are right; that is an excellent précis of my position. > [@](#): > > he’s saying calling something “evil” is the easy way out, and that one should try to understand the underlying mechanisms, and you’re responding by saying: “You won’t call it evil! You want sympathy for terrorists!”. While I agree with **Efrem** that demonizing the Palestinians is not useful in stopping the terror, I vehemently disagree that one cannot condemn the act of bombing a cafe or sending your kids out to throw stones in hopes they’ll get shot by the IDF and serve Palestinian propaganda as “martyrs.” Just because one understands the historical context that might impel someone to blow up a bus does not ameliorate the moral dimension of the act. Bombing a military post can be construed as an act of war; after all, the soldiers are the agents of oppression. Killing Israeli (or Arab) children solely because of their ethnicity is just plain wrong, and no amount of historical injustice can serve to diminish its horror. Saying, “Well, yes, suicide bombing isn’t good, but… (lame-ass rationalization)…” serves only as an _apologia_ for terror. Regarding the use of the word “lynch”… > [@](#): > > Taking aside the fact that I am not American, and we are not talking about the USA (so it seems a little irrelevent to disscuss American history). The word “lynch” carries significance wherever in the world you are, so take it as hyperbole. Well, yes it’s hyperbole, and it’s wrong. To lynch someone means to put them to death by mob action without legal sanction. Using words without understanding their meaning turns dialogue to gibberish, don’t you dinosaur so? And I aplogize to **Efrem** for the ESL crack. His English is far better than my nonexistent Tigrinya, so I’ll pass over any _lacunae_ in his grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/85 "2002-06-10T14:13:54Z")
IINM, rock throwing in Israel or anywhere else in the Middle East carries another connotation: that of an attempt at execution. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/86 "2002-06-10T14:19:35Z")
**Efrem** only used lynch in the same way people say “They’ll crucify him for this”. I’m sure he didn’t expect the Spanish Inquisition 😉 > [@](#): > > Bombing a military post can be construed as an act of war; after all, the soldiers are the agents of oppression. Killing Israeli (or Arab) children solely because of their ethnicity is just plain wrong, and no amount of historical injustice can serve to diminish its horror. Saying, “Well, yes, suicide bombing isn’t good, but… (lame-ass rationalization)…” serves only as an apologia for terror. You do need to be able to look at terrorist attacks of any nature and not just dismiss the actions. By demonizing the bombers and their actions you learn nothing. It matters not what Israel, America or every right thinking person in the world feel about these actions the fact remains that the terrorists feel like they have a reason to carry out such acts. These men are indeed held up a heroes in Jenin and other places. Their pictures adorn walls all over Jenin. We need to understand these motivations as without that understanding how the hell can we try to stop the terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/87 "2002-06-10T14:42:35Z")
> [@](#): > > You do need to be able to look at terrorist attacks of any nature and not just dismiss the actions. By demonizing the bombers and their actions you learn nothing. We already know their motivations: they want to kill Jews and sow an atmosphere of terror, with the ultimate goal of replacing the Jewish state with an Arab-only Palestine. Now, there are steps Israel could take to reduce Arab anti-Jewish hatred; end settlement of the West Bank, stop collective punishment of Palestinians, reduce security measures at West Bank and Jordan border checkpoints. That might reduce tensions, but it won’t stop the bombings. You know why? Because the Jews aren’t dead and Israel still exists. The destruction of Israel is the only result that will stop the terror. Even if Israel closed the settlements and gave the West Bank full independence with an intact, contiguous border, the terror against Israel would still continue. And nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! (dramatic sting) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/88 "2002-06-10T14:50:51Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sure he didn’t expect the Spanish Inquisition Surprise, fear, and an almost fanatical devotion to Cecil. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/89 "2002-06-10T15:31:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **While I agree with Efrem that demonizing the Palestinians is not useful in stopping the terror, I vehemently disagree that one cannot condemn the act of bombing a cafe or sending your kids out to throw stones in hopes they’ll get shot by the IDF and serve Palestinian propaganda as “martyrs.” Just because one understands the historical context that might impel someone to blow up a bus does not ameliorate the moral dimension of the act.** Well, there you go. _I_ don’t see anyting by **Efrem** that even remotely condones suicide bombings, or even rock throwing. Seems to me he’s saying, “Don’t just dismiss it as evil, try to _understand_ what’s going on”. A lot of semantics, and little substantial difference - where both parties seem a tad unwilling to interpret the adversary’s words favourably. > [@](#): > > **We already know their motivations: they want to kill Jews and sow an atmosphere of terror, with the ultimate goal of replacing the Jewish state with an Arab-only Palestine.** Just for the record: this would apply to suicide bombers specifically (or at least the majority of them), not Palestinians as a whole. I know you meant that, but I just wanted to make sure. > [@](#): > > \*\*Now, there are steps Israel could take to reduce Arab anti-Jewish hatred; end settlement of the West Bank, stop collective punishment of Palestinians, reduce security measures at West Bank and Jordan border checkpoints. That might reduce tensions, but it won’t stop the bombings. You know why? Because the Jews aren’t dead and Israel still exists. The destruction of Israel is the only result that will stop the terror. Even if Israel closed the settlements and gave the West Bank full independence with an intact, contiguous border, the terror against Israel would still continue. \*\* Whether this is true or not, time will tell. But tell me, which government will have a better chance at combatting terrorism by its citizens towards another nation/people: [ul][li]A crippled pseudo-government without real power, constantly blamed for actions it cannot prevent effectively, or;A full government with freedom of movement, freedom of defence, and freedom of justice to actually _do something about the terror_?[/ul]The answer’s easy. If Israel wants peace (and I am fully convinced that the vast, vast majority of the Israeli people want just that), they are going to have to trust the Palestinian authorities a helluvalot more than they do now. You can’t blame Arafat for failing to combat terrorism while you’re simultaneously locking him up in his own headquarters, surrounded by a couple o’ hundred tanks. All it leads to is a spiral of violence on both sides, as we clearly have seen ever since Sharon came to power.[/li] It’s a fucking shame Rabin wasn’t able to finish what he started - as it is, it’ll take two _decades_ for Israel-Palestine relations to get where they were in 1995. Please, do me a favour, and don’t retort by saying this is a pro-Palestinian or anti-Jewish stance. I’m on neither side, and I’m on both sides at the same time - I just want the madness to end. Sharon is not the answer. Arafat, well, who knows? He seemed to get along with Sharon’s predecessors a lot better. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/90 "2002-06-10T15:43:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Please, do me a favour, and don’t retort by saying this is a pro-Palestinian or anti-Jewish stance. I’m on neither side, and I’m on both sides at the same time - I just want the madness to end. Sharon is not the answer. Arafat, well, who knows? He seemed to get along with Sharon’s predecessors a lot better. I’d like to think that you would give me more credit than that. I’m not a rabid partisan, unlike some posters. I agree with all your points except for Arafat–he’s a sleazy autocrat who is running his cause into the ground. No deals can be made with him that he won’t renege in a second. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/91 "2002-06-10T16:47:54Z")
It wasn’t aimed at you in particular, **gobear** - just to prevent any such response altogether. I am by no means a great fan of Arafat - the difference with Israeli leaders is, that there’s little material for comparison. I mean, I’ve seen more than a handful of Israeli prime ministers in my time, but there’s only One Palestinian Leader. Surely, that would be resolved when a fully functional Palestinian government would be in place. Or when Arafat dies, whichever comes first. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/92 "2002-06-11T01:19:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by efrem \* > \*\*Aside that fact that in this quote I didn’t assert **my** opinion of rock throwers, but my opinion of how Americans would react toward American children if they threw rocks at soliders of an oppressive occupating nation. I asked for a quote where I called Terrorists “heros” (as you claimed). Please, where is that quote? \*\* Ok, **Efrem** , I cannot find a quote where you called terrorists “heros”, so I retract my statement. _Mea culpa_. I still believe that deliberately putting your children in harm’s way in an attempt to further your cause (however righteous) is cowardly and evil. And your halfway condemnation of homicide bombers is unpleasant, to say the least. Basically, I pretty much agree with the substance of **Gobear’s** posts on the subject. Since he has obviously communicated them more clearly than I, I’ll just leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/2bfe46/32.png) [@Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xavier)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/93 "2002-06-11T01:41:32Z")
> [@](#): > > **December:** If you’re implying that you’d rather see Israel retaliate by killing Palestinian civilians, then I disagree. > > If you’re implying that you’d rather see Israel not retaliate at all, then I disagree. > > If you’re implying that Israel deserves to be criticized no matter what they do, then I disagree. No, just replying to your initial post, which to highlight, said: > [@](#): > > difference between killing human beings and destroying real estate. And subsequently made a wisecrack. Kudos for trying to re-arrange it into a verbal argument far more digestable for your argumentative appetite though. And no, I don’t believe Israel should be criticized no matter what it does. Good efforts on both sides can (and will) be appreciated. That I don’t think they are necessarily doing the best for peace _right now_ is a different matter altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Heimdall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c2a13f/32.png) [@Heimdall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heimdall)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/94 "2002-06-11T07:52:45Z")
A few days ago a friend copied this to me. I think it’s worth repeating. Here it is ---- I do hereby denounce the following in the name of the Jewish People: . 1. All Jewish suicide bombers who have ever acted against Arabs. 2. All Arab buses blown up by Jews. 3. All Arab pizza parlors, malls, discotheques and restaurants destroyed by Jewish terrorists. 4. All airplanes hijacked by Jews since 1903. 5. All Ramadan feasts targeted by Jewish bombs. 6. All Arab cibvilians lynched in Israeli cities; all Arab Olympic athletes murdered by Jews; all Arab embassies bombed by Jews. 7. All mosques, cemeteries and religious schools fire bombed or desecrated by Jews in North Africa, France, Belgium, Germany, England or any other country. 8. The destruction of American military, governmental and civilian institutions in Kenya, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - along with the murder of U.S. Marines and diplomatic personnel. 9. All Jewish school books which claim that Arabs poison wells, use Christian blood to bake pita, control world finance, and murdered Jesus; or that Arab elders meet secretly to plot a world takeover. 10. And I am particularly ashamed at the way my fellow Jews attacked the World Trade Center, Pentagon and civilian aircraft on September 11, and danced in the streets to celebrate the act. * * * And thus ends my first post to this Forum. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/95 "2002-06-11T08:20:28Z")
And your opinion on this piece of propaganda is…? While acknowledging that these are not inaccurate summaries of things that have happened, it would be equally possible to construct a completely one-sided list of terrible, but different, things done by members of _any_ religion. Try ‘Christian’ and start with the Holocaust, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, continue through South and Central America, into Northern Ireland, and so on. > [@](#): > > And thus ends my first post to this Forum. Don’t hurry back, if the above is an indication of the quality of your posts. ---
**Author:** ![Heimdall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c2a13f/32.png) [@Heimdall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heimdall)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/96 "2002-06-11T09:46:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*And your opinion on this piece of propaganda is…? > > While acknowledging that these are not inaccurate summaries of things that have happened, it would be equally possible to construct a completely one-sided list of terrible, but different, things done by members of _any_ religion. Try ‘Christian’ and start with the Holocaust, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, continue through South and Central America, into Northern Ireland, and so on. Don’t hurry back, if the above is an indication of the quality of your posts. \*\* While I accept that offences have been committed by many against many the continued attacks against civilians as direct targets by the plo and their foul associates does set a new world low. Allmost as low as ira/sin fein. Now there were another bunch of civilian murdering cowardly scum who soon stopped their antics when the true Ulster men finally descended near their level an paid them in their own coin. Soon called for a cease-fire then didn’t they! Moral of the day - don’t fight above your weight. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/97 "2002-06-11T09:48:12Z")
Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren’t acts of terrorism, jj. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/98 "2002-06-11T10:04:12Z")
**Heimdall** , the problem is that your piece of e-mail propaganda says it compares “Jews” and “Arabs” (and it certainly implies “Palestinians”), whereas in reality it is describing terrible crimes comitted by Muslims the world over. Kind of like a Protestant inhabitant of Northen Ireland blaming all Irish Catholics for the Crusades. If your point is: “Muslims are responsible for more acts of terrorism than Jews”, then I guess you have a point. If your point is: “Palestinians are responsible for everything in this e-mail”, then you’re full of it. Either way, it doesn’t add anything to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/99 "2002-06-11T10:22:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren’t acts of terrorism, jj. \*\* This has been debated at length in GD. Some people consider them so, and if Hiroshima wasn’t an act of terror, then Nagasaki certainly was. Anyway, whether you choose to view these as terrorism or not, they were both certainly “systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments”. **Heimdall** , your interpretation of the Northern Irish ceasefire _certainly_ leaves something to be desired too. If you think that Loyalist terrorism was what drove Republican terrorists to negotiate, you are clearly a total fucking ignoramus who can think about fucking off, reading a book, coming back here and apologising for being such a clueless twat, or failing that, just fucking off. Don’t fight above _your_ weight, dillweed. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2002, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586/100 "2002-06-11T11:27:31Z")
You are absolutely incorrect, jj. They were acts of war conducted during, you guessed it, a war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/some-well-educated-ideas-that-should-unite-the-world-against-them-muslim-terrorists/112586.md?page=6)