# Somebody explain the artistic merit of this painting to me please **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 15, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380 "2013-05-15T06:28:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/1 "2013-05-15T06:28:43Z")
[This](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/15/arts/design/record-auction-price-for-barnett-newman-at-sothebys.html?hp&_r=0) painting(nytimes link) sold for 44 million dollars. It consists of two blue rectangles, with one narrow white rectangle in the middle. WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/2 "2013-05-15T07:02:30Z")
Are you upset at the monetary value attached to this artwork, or do you just not like it as a painting? If it’s the price tag that’s bothering you, remember that the art market isn’t determined by questions of intrinsic value. No piece of painted canvas or hunk of marble is technically “worth” millions of dollars as a material object. It’s worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. If you actually want to learn something about the painting in your link, and understand more about why some people are in fact willing to pay millions of dollars for an abstract expressionist/minimalist type of painting, you might read up on Barnett Newman [here](http://www.theartstory.org/artist-newman-barnett.htm), for instance. If you just don’t like the painting and wouldn’t pay $44 million for it even if you had the odd $44 million to spare, that’s okay. There isn’t some magic absolute standard of “artistic merit” by which everybody is expected to agree on the worth of paintings. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/3 "2013-05-15T07:16:03Z")
It’s not possible to explain artistic merit. You either like it or you don’t. ETA: If enough rich people like something, then its financial value can rise to objectively ludicrous levels. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/4 "2013-05-15T07:31:15Z")
But can anyone explain why somebody would look at that painting and feel that it has any significant artistic merit? ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/5 "2013-05-15T07:36:37Z")
You need to be in the room with it. Not look at a photo of it. But be in the room with it. I’ve looked at similar works at MoMA. (in NYC) I should say “experienced” similar works because it is an experience viewing them. You also have to consider it’s place in the history of art. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/6 "2013-05-15T07:51:11Z")
I read the OP and guessed Rothko, but then I moused over the link . . . _ **NEWMAN!** _ Just realizing now looking at their Wiki pages that their lifespans ran almost perfectly congruent. Rothko was born just a year and a half before Newman (_NEWMAN!_) and they died the same year- Rothko in February and Newman in July. The above bit of trivia, I’m sure, helps no one with anything. Just thought it was neat. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/7 "2013-05-15T08:06:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Are you upset at the monetary value attached to this artwork, or do you just not like it as a painting? > \ I’m not upset at anything. Flabbergasted is the strongest word I would use, and even then probably not. And it would be nice if you would tell me why you thought the painting had artistic merit, instead of linking me to an article about the painter. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But can anyone explain why somebody would look at that painting and feel that it has any significant artistic merit? Exactly. > [@Zebra](#): > > You need to be in the room with it. Not look at a photo of it. But be in the room with it. > > I’ve looked at similar works at MoMA. (in NYC) I should say “experienced” similar works because it is an experience viewing them. > > You also have to consider it’s place in the history of art. I’ve been in rooms with blue walls. If that wall was in a museum, and framed with a white stripe down the middle, the ‘being in a museum’ bit may add some sense of special-ness, granted. As for its “place in the history of art”, a painting ought to give some sense of talent outside of just context. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/8 "2013-05-15T08:10:33Z")
If you don’t get it, I can’t explain it to you. Actually, I can’t explain it to you under any circumstances, because I don’t get it, either. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/9 "2013-05-15T08:58:11Z")
Are we sure that it’s not a painting by [Rabo Karabekian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabo_Karabekian)? ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/10 "2013-05-15T09:15:31Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > And it would be nice if you would tell me why you thought the painting had artistic merit, instead of linking me to an article about the painter. Your dismissive “WTF?” OP clearly communicates that you don’t want someone to explain the artistic merit of the work. “Someone explain the artistic merit of this painting to me” punctutated by “WTF?” is simple rhetoric for “I have decided this work has no artistic merit.” You then follow up with more dismissiveness. > [@](#): > > I’ve been in rooms with blue walls. If that wall was in a museum, and framed with a white stripe down the middle, the ‘being in a museum’ bit may add some sense of special-ness, granted. Cafe Society is a perfectly appropriate forum to address a multimillion dollar price tag on a work of art as being teh st00pid, but if you’re not really interested in understanding the context of the work there’s no sense in anyone putting any effort into providing you an art history dissertation. **Kimstu** provided an excellent link that addresses the artist’s legacy in layman’s terms. It’s brief and yet it is a fairly rich summary providing a foundation for any curious reader who wants to build a fuller understanding. Still, you place no value on the information provided nor any appreciation for **Kimstu** ’s effort. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/11 "2013-05-15T09:19:42Z")
These days, lots of art sells for millions of dollars. I often hear people say things like “My kid could have done that.” Well, the fact is, your kid DIDN’T do it. If that’s all it takes, why isn’t your kid doing it and raking in the bucks? You’re likely to discover that your kid couldn’t do it after all, that it takes talent and education and hard work just to make something that your kid could do just as well . . . if he only had the talent, education and hard work. I am an artist, and nobody says that about my work. The art that I create takes an average of 6-8 weeks to do, and demands a great deal of creativity, precision and exhausting work. And it shows. But I also have to be supportive of art that’s not so obviously hard to do, and maybe your kid could do it after all. Except that the artist did it, and your kid didn’t. Nobody gets paid for art they could have done, but didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/12 "2013-05-15T09:26:25Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > I read the OP and guessed Rothko. So did I, but then I realized we already have four or five Rothko threads, so it just couldn’t be that again. I’m certainly glad to learn about a new artist! ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/13 "2013-05-15T09:30:35Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > I’m certainly glad to learn about a new artist! Well, Newman’s work was featured in _Iron Man 2_, so his level of prestige is sure to top Rothko’s for a while still. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/14 "2013-05-15T09:40:04Z")
It is all about the self worth of the people who _dictate_ that it is worth $44 million. As a painting, devoid of any other context it either moves you or it doesn’t and no single person gets to define it as “good” or “bad” for anyone but themselves. However, I suspect that some people crave the power to define “good” and “bad” and quantify it in terms of dollars. They seem to be saying “If, by people listening to my opinion, I can lift an artwork to stratospheric prices then that someone validates my sense of good taste” The more abstract and banal the artwork, the more influential that opinion must have been. By choosing polarising artwork it ensures that person will put more distance between themselves and those that “don’t get it”. A lot of it is snobbery, as if you can buy “good taste”. It is possible that they like it for pure emotional reasons but In many cases I suspect the validation of critical power and judgement is at play. However, as has been said. To know whether you will have a visceral and emotional response to a work you _must_ go and see it. You wouldn’t judge a movie by looking at stills and reading a script and the same goes for artwork. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/15 "2013-05-15T09:41:26Z")
> [@lawoot](#): > > Are we sure that it’s not a painting by [Rabo Karabekian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabo_Karabekian)? No, Karabekian does not do regular shapes. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/16 "2013-05-15T09:50:01Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > These days, lots of art sells for millions of dollars. I often hear people say things like “My kid could have done that.” Well, the fact is, your kid DIDN’T do it. If that’s all it takes, why isn’t your kid doing it and raking in the bucks? You’re likely to discover that your kid couldn’t do it after all, that it takes talent and education and hard work just to make something that your kid could do just as well . . . if he only had the talent, education and hard work. > > I am an artist, and nobody says that about my work. The art that I create takes an average of 6-8 weeks to do, and demands a great deal of creativity, precision and exhausting work. And it shows. But I also have to be supportive of art that’s not so obviously hard to do, and maybe your kid could do it after all. Except that the artist did it, and your kid didn’t. Nobody gets paid for art they could have done, but didn’t. I think you are right here. One of the reasons it’s impossible to fully appreciate paintings like this out of context is that they are no longer new. Everyone and their kid _is_ now doing large abstract paintings, and you can see them on the walls of any corporate headquarters. That wasn’t the case when these works were new, they were bold and challenging, and asked the question whether painting had intrinsic value in the era of photography. All of this needs to be considered in addition to the question “do I like it?”. In general with paintings, that can only be fully answered by seeing the original, and I find that effect is much stronger with abstracts. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/17 "2013-05-15T09:52:05Z")
Does a con artist count as an artist? Because the extent of its artistic merit is that some pillock managed to talk a lot of people into believing it has artistic merit. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/18 "2013-05-15T09:58:18Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > Your dismissive “WTF?” OP clearly communicates that you don’t want someone to explain the artistic merit of the work. “Someone explain the artistic merit of this painting to me” punctutated by “WTF?” is simple rhetoric for “I have decided this work has no artistic merit.” > > You then follow up with more dismissiveness. > Cafe Society is a perfectly appropriate forum to address a multimillion dollar price tag on a work of art as being teh st00pid, but if you’re not really interested in understanding the context of the work there’s no sense in anyone putting any effort into providing you an art history dissertation. > > **Kimstu** provided an excellent link that addresses the artist’s legacy in layman’s terms. It’s brief and yet it is a fairly rich summary providing a foundation for any curious reader who wants to build a fuller understanding. Still, you place no value on the information provided nor any appreciation for **Kimstu** ’s effort. Yes, it’s very clear I think the work has no artistic merit. Which is why I asked someone to explain to me their perspective on the artistic merit of the painting. Did Kimstu do so? No, he/she provided me a link which, in your own words talks about the artist’s legacy, and not the painting in question. To which I responded quite politely I thought. If you think that the painting itself has no artistic merit but instead relies on context and history for its place as art, ok, say so. If there is something inherently wonderful about what is going on in this painting, try explaining it to me, instead of being dismissive yourself. Your answer may or may not make sense to me, but it would be nice to see if there is a solid argument to be made, and if someone here can make it. If I’ve approached getting to this argument in the wrong way, I apologise. But yes, I place no value on non-answers. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/19 "2013-05-15T10:27:34Z")
I find it amusing that in spite all the pretentious posturing, no one has actually offered an explanation as to WHY this painting might be worth so much. Apparently [Barnett Newman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_Newman)was a big deal in the 50s as a “major figures in [abstract expressionism](abstract expressionism) and one of the foremost of the [color field](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Field) painters”. IOW, in the 50s and 60s, artists experimented a lot with minimalist paintings of big fields of color. No, it’s not [Monet’s Water Lilys](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Lilies). IMHO a lot of modern art looks like it could have come out of a 4th grade arts and crafts class (children…today we will paint “blue”). But a lot of art is trying new things and seeing the reaction. So much of the reason it costs so much is because of the historical content of the painting. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/20 "2013-05-15T10:28:23Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Yes, it’s very clear I think the work has no artistic merit. Which is why I asked someone to explain to me their perspective on the artistic merit of the painting. Did Kimstu do so? No, he/she provided me a link which, in your own words talks about the artist’s legacy, and not the painting in question. To which I responded quite politely I thought. > > If you think that the painting itself has no artistic merit but instead relies on context and history for its place as art, ok, say so. If there is something inherently wonderful about what is going on in this painting, try explaining it to me, instead of being dismissive yourself. Your answer may or may not make sense to me, but it would be nice to see if there is a solid argument to be made, and if someone here can make it. If I’ve approached getting to this argument in the wrong way, I apologise. But yes, I place no value on non-answers. You have had answers, you are choosing to dismiss them based on your judgement that the painting has no artistic merit, despite the fact that you have neither seen the painting nor understood it’s place in art history. You are of course welcome to that opinion, but you should understand that it’s meaningless. To answer directly, based on seeing the reproductions and reading comments from people who have seen it, it’s beautiful thought-provoking, and innovative. That, to me, seems sufficient that it’s artistic merit should be unquestioned. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380.md?page=2)