# Somebody explain the artistic merit of this painting to me please **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 15, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380 "2013-05-15T06:28:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/121 "2013-05-16T03:06:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If the Prof, an art appraiser, is familiar with that attitude, don’t you think it’s probably more than a caricature? Or did I misunderstand his post? Among people who buy art as an “investment”? I’m sure it’s definitely out there. Among people who just like experiencing and thinking about art? I’ll bet good money it’s less common. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/122 "2013-05-16T03:06:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If the Prof, an art appraiser, is familiar with that attitude, don’t you think it’s probably more than a caricature? Or did I misunderstand his post? I think you understood his post fine. But, in my experience, that type of modern art fan is the exception, not the rule, which is what I mean by that being “more a straw man and caricature.” Art is for everyone to enjoy. Or maybe I just don’t hang out with pretentious douchebags. ETA: I should amend that I have seen that attitude in fine art/gallery circles, especially in New York. But that’s from the “scenesters.” Just your average modern art fan? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![tomcar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tomcar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomcar)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/123 "2013-05-16T03:13:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Not at all a fan of color field paintings, but then I’m not a very visual person. More power to you if you like it. > > But I admit that when I read something like this: > > My hackles rise. > > I don’t think the good Prof is endorsing this view, but it’s certainly an attitude that sometimes comes off of some fans of modern art. It’s the same kind of attitude that makes hipsters and some foodies so irritating: they’re into this thing that you won’t get, because you’re not refined enough. > > Grr. > > Folks in this thread aren’t saying that. They’re saying, “I love this kind of thing, but it’s subjective.” And that’s totally cool. But that’s not the only attitude associated with modern art fans, and I suspect a lot of the hostility modern art is getting in this thread is misplaced reaction to the other kind of attitude. All fields have experts. Even in entertainment and leisure there are people who are more knowledgable than others. Some people have more refined palates. These ideas seem to be at the core of many Cafe Society discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/124 "2013-05-16T03:20:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Folks in this thread aren’t saying that. They’re saying, “I love this kind of thing, but it’s subjective.” And that’s totally cool. But that’s not the only attitude associated with modern art fans, and I suspect a lot of the hostility modern art is getting in this thread is misplaced reaction to the other kind of attitude. Funny that reading that got your hackles up, and this didn’t: > [@Grumman](#): > > Does a con artist count as an artist? Because the extent of its artistic merit is that some pillock managed to talk a lot of people into believing it has artistic merit. Considering that one was a sentiment expressed by someone in this thread, and the other a position so vanishingly rare that I, for one, have never once met a person, in real life or online, who held it. And I just spent two and a half years in a San Franciscan art school. To the extent that I’ve heard that position expressed at all, it’s always, without exception, been in direct response to being repeatedly called a liar and an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/125 "2013-05-16T03:48:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That question, “How does that line do this,” is a big part of minimalism as a movement. One way to think about minimalism is as an exercise in paring down painting into discrete techniques, to see how much emotional content you can convey with as few elements as possible. Outstanding post. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/126 "2013-05-16T04:07:20Z")
Agh. I’d written a reply to everyone and the computer ate it. In short, I appreciate how being in the same room with something like this may make a difference. The 44 M bit wasn’t actually pertinent to my OP, maybe I should have left it out seeing how much everyone is focusing on it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/127 "2013-05-16T04:23:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, with the Newman, how does a white stripe against a blue background communicate, as the Professor put it, “you are the zip and the fields represent life and the world trying to wear you down, assimilate you, make you less than you are?” Well, let me start by saying that I haven’t seen this painting in person, so I’m just going off the images I can find on the web. Consequently, I’m defending an interpretation I may not necessarily agree with - were I to see this painting in person, I might find that I have a much different reaction to it. > > The first thing I notice looking at the picture is the stripe. Like Napoleon’s cape, your eye goes right to it. It’s right in the middle of the canvas, and the bright white make it pop. This feels pretty strongly like the “subject” of the painting to me. It’s pretty automatic to anthropomorphize abstract objects ([Everyone sees the faces here, right?](http://www.tiburonenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Electrical-Outlet.jpg)), so it’s pretty easy to view an upright line as a guy. A guy with no distinct or discernible features is kind of an everyman, a stand-in that could represent any individual, including the viewer. So, that’s how we get “you are the zip,” in the Professor’s quote. > > Then there’s these two big, dark things on either side of him. I kind of go back and forth on these, whether they’re next to the stripe, or beneath the stripe. Let’s run with the idea that they’re next to it. Viewed that way, they feel constricting, like they’re squeezing the center line. The wobble in the line’s edge helps with that impression. Blue is, in general, kind of a bummer of a color, especially darker blues. The way the blue gets darker towards the border gives it more of a sense of weight. (Incidentally, getting a nice gradient like that isn’t easy. I’m not saying it’s the hardest thing in the world of painting, but all the people saying that their five year old could paint this? That gradient is the part your kid can’t paint.) They feel oppressive, almost overwhelming. It feels like two huge gloomy boulders gradually grinding away at whatever is between them. Having just returned this afternoon from a job interview I’m pretty sure I fucked up, this is resonating pretty well for me right now. That’s the “the fields represent life and the world trying to wear you down.” Okay, I’m not saying you’ve converted me. But I will give you full credit for being the first person who admires this painting and can articulate why you admire it. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/128 "2013-05-16T05:10:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Music is an inherently abstract art form. Music is generally appreciated for its aesthetic merit rather than its meaning. > > And I have no problems with that. Art is perfectly valid is its only purpose is to be enjoyed. But to me, Newman’s work is almost as lacking in aesthetic value as it is in meaning. > > You could go out and pick up a pebble up off the ground and experience an epiphany while starting at it. But that doesn’t mean there was meaning in that pebble. Music is not inherently abstract. Most music has a specific concrete meaning or emotional context. This is a sad song. This piece is about a certain battle or historical event. If you do enjoy that, do you like Phillip Glass? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/129 "2013-05-16T06:47:20Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > Kindergarten-style art by some guy I never heard of. I’d maybe be willing to pay five bucks for it (a couple dollars more if it had a frame), but I’d have to trim off at least a foot off each side to fit it into my house… If find you can’t resell it I will give you a dollar if it fits between the wheels of my car and is oil resistant. but you have to deliver it. You can keep the frame. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/130 "2013-05-16T07:02:59Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > These days, lots of art sells for millions of dollars. I often hear people say things like “My kid could have done that.” Well, the fact is, your kid DIDN’T do it. I don’t have any kids but I’ve painted almost the exact same thing quite a few times over the last year AND was paid for it. In fact the last one I did the buyer’s brother was there for the unveiling and told be my work was vastly better than the one he commissioned. I’d show you a picture of it but you really need to be in the room to appreciate the subtle strokes I used. I completely redefined the space with the use of industrial objects set nearby to give the work depth. I’ve spent years perfecting the use of different applicators to get just the right effect knowing that light will change it’s appearance throughout the day. I like to keep my lines very precise and do not charge extra for straying off the visual plane. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/131 "2013-05-16T07:12:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If find you can’t resell it I will give you a dollar if it fits between the wheels of my car and is oil resistant. but you have to deliver it. You can keep the frame. Reverse snobs are not any cooler than regular snobs when it comes to making judgements about art (or pretty much anything else, for that matter). Your reverse snobbery, like the direct snobbery of the pretentious poseurs who like to sneer at people who don’t enjoy modern art, is simply a form of bragging about your own taste by disparaging the taste of people who disagree with you. “I don’t see any merit in that painting and I wouldn’t want to own it even if some people do consider it a masterpiece” is an aesthetic opinion. “I would destroy that so-called masterpiece if I owned it” is merely swaggering about how much you despise people who have the effrontery to have an aesthetic opinion that’s different from yours. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/132 "2013-05-16T07:20:05Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Sure - color field paintings are big and kinda hypnotic. When you are in the same room and looking at the painting, you can…“lose yourself” in one in a pretty cool way. I could close my eyes, walk outside and point to anything, ANYTHING, and make a similar statement. Lets try shall we, OK, I ended up pointing at a 4x4 used as a gate post. I’ll just metaphorically yank it up and toss it on the floor of the Guggenheim Museum. The dirt at the bottom represents the elements of life from which we spring but yet holds us back, anchored to the earth. Ripping it out of the ground was an act designed to free it from confinement. The post itself is a timeworn example of how mankind has forced conformity out of a free-form soul, laid bare and lifeless to be used by others and then discarded as it decays. The hinges born into the side of the post is the link to a gateway. Closed it shows us our limitations, open it allows only the limits of our imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/133 "2013-05-16T07:24:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Reverse snobs are not any cooler than regular snobs when it comes to making judgements about art (or pretty much anything else, for that matter). > > Your reverse snobbery, like the direct snobbery of the pretentious poseurs who like to sneer at people who don’t enjoy modern art, is simply a form of bragging about your own taste by disparaging the taste of people who disagree with you. > > “I don’t see any merit in that painting and I wouldn’t want to own it even if some people do consider it a masterpiece” is an aesthetic opinion. “I would destroy that so-called masterpiece if I owned it” is merely swaggering about how much you despise people who have the effrontery to have an aesthetic opinion that’s different from yours. You can’t be a reverse snob regarding the emperor’s clothes. The professor got it right on the first go. I never said I’d destroy it. I gave it worth. It’s worth a dollar to keep oil from getting on my garage floor. BTW I love modern art. I also like antiques. But unlike antique snobs I don’t care if it’s old or who made it. I care about how good it looks and appreciate craftsman who had vision and artistic license. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/134 "2013-05-16T07:24:57Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > My kids definitely could have done pictures like this Newman. > > I think this Newman is boring, pointless rubbish. > > Why would I post boring, pointless rubbish, just because my kids made it? But in all the thousands of years of art history, Newman was the FIRST to do this painting as a serious work of art. There’s a huge difference between some kid doing this, as opposed to someone who is a trained, educated artist who knows what he’s doing, and can articulate WHY he’s doing it. And a “could have done” work of art will not sell for even one cent. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/135 "2013-05-16T07:31:36Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > But in all the thousands of years of art history, Newman was the FIRST to do this painting as a serious work of art. There’s a huge difference between some kid doing this, as opposed to someone who is a trained, educated artist who knows what he’s doing, and can articulate WHY he’s doing it. > > And a “could have done” work of art will not sell for even one cent. wait what? It’s art because some jackass is trained as an artist and made the painting and not because a kid did it in kindergarten? That’s the criteria? This reminds me of the 60 minutes interview of a couple who collected art all their lives. They had a famous artist over to their apartment and as a gift he tacked on a 1 inch piece of string to a door frame. I have must have 100 million dollars worth of art stuck in various places in my house. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/136 "2013-05-16T07:39:17Z")
BTW, I think I discovered the reason for the high value in the painting. It’s got something to do with the Illuminati. If you look at the picture sideways you can see Jesus in agony with the crown of thorns. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/137 "2013-05-16T08:52:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You can’t be a reverse snob regarding the emperor’s clothes. Calling the work of an artist who’s been well-known and highly regarded by art historians, museum curators and collectors for nearly a half-century “the emperor’s new clothes” is the essence of reverse snobbery. Not content to say “Meh, I don’t like it and I don’t see any particular achievement or value in it”, you’re insisting that because _you_ don’t see anything in it, there can’t be anything in it at all. You’re just bragging about how much smarter you think you are than all those “so-called experts”. > [@Magiver](#): > > I care about how good it looks Sure, you care about how good it looks _to you_. So do most viewers and collectors of art, even the ones who have different opinions about what looks good than you do. > [@Magiver](#): > > and appreciate craftsman who had vision and artistic license. Well, you appreciate craftsmen who exhibit the kind of craft you personally like, who had vision that you are sympathetic to, and who availed themselves of the kind of artistic license that you personally consider appropriate. You evidently don’t have any sympathy or liking for the Abstract Expressionist/Color Field vision, which as I noted above was based on the concept of trying to convey ideas and emotions by combinations of color, size and shape alone, without relying on the traditional artistic vocabulary of realistic representation. Nor do you have any liking or approval for the kind of craft those painters used, which focused on choosing the structure and arrangement of simple forms and working into them subtle details (like the color gradients **Miller** was talking about) that wouldn’t distract from the appearance of simplicity. And that’s fine. You don’t have to like Abstract Expressionist or Color Field painting at all, and there’s nothing wrong with that. But when you try to argue that because **you** don’t like it there must simply not be anything in it to like, you’re just indulging in reverse snobbery. You don’t make yourself look more knowledgeable or insightful by sneering at “the experts”, any more than a more traditional pretentious art snob looks more knowledgeable or insightful by sneering at “the masses”. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/138 "2013-05-16T10:01:00Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Still don’t like it? Fine. Part of the deal with the Modern Art crowd is that the everyday masses aren’t supposed to like it. You have to be one of the cognoscenti, the in-crowd, and possess superior aesthetic sense to like it. Anybody can like a painting of mountains at sunset, but those in the know will like a white line on a blue background even more. The Nouveau Riche, who want to appear as if they have this aesthetic even when they don’t, will let themselves be led by art buyers who are supposed to understand this. The only emotion modern art used to inspire in me was rage followed by confusion. Then it made me horny and I’d get confused again which would drive me to a rage. I made my peace with modern art when I realized that I didn’t have the background to appreciate it. In many cases I would not recognize the object as art were it not hanging on the wall of a museum with a little placard nearby telling me it was art. Modern art seems to be the only type of art that does this to me. I don’t particularly care for African art but I can recognize it as art and even appreciate the work that went into creating a sculpture or a pattern on clothing. I don’t always understand the symbolism used in paintings from the 14th century but I find many of them aesthetically pleasing, and, again, I can recognize them as art regardless of the context I find them in. I think Pepperwinkle has give the best answer in this thread. You’re not meant to appreciate it. Modern art is like that guy who won’t let you into the exclusive club saying “You don’t have to go to Kinkade’s place but you can’t come here.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/139 "2013-05-16T10:15:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Funny that reading that got your hackles up, and this didn’t: No, that just made me roll my eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2013, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380/140 "2013-05-16T11:03:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I could close my eyes, walk outside and point to anything, ANYTHING, and make a similar statement. > > Lets try shall we, OK, I ended up pointing at a 4x4 used as a gate post. I’ll just metaphorically yank it up and toss it on the floor of the Guggenheim Museum. The dirt at the bottom represents the elements of life from which we spring but yet holds us back, anchored to the earth. Ripping it out of the ground was an act designed to free it from confinement. The post itself is a timeworn example of how mankind has forced conformity out of a free-form soul, laid bare and lifeless to be used by others and then discarded as it decays. The hinges born into the side of the post is the link to a gateway. Closed it shows us our limitations, open it allows only the limits of our imagination. So do it. If it’s original enough, and moves or interests enough people, then you’ve created a worthwhile piece of art. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-artistic-merit-of-this-painting-to-me-please/658380.md?page=8)