# Somebody explain the evolution of Batman to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 7, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048 "2004-06-07T03:22:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/41 "2004-06-08T00:35:59Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > I’ve heard that the Batman title was teetering toward cancellation by the time the TV series arrived and drastically stoked interest in it; can anyone confirm? Actually, I can deny. The series was in a huge sales slump as the “space Batman”/“Batman family” stuff (which was in part a desperate attempt to rip-off the Weisinger Superman’s success) sucked. However the “New Look” Batman came _before_ the show and sales had been outstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/42 "2004-06-08T00:36:45Z")
The Spoiler gave up her baby for adoption (when it was born, it may have returned since, for all I know). The father was never named, but it was her ex, before she and Robin started dating at all seriously. And at least teh current Batgirl actually is a girl (rather than a woman), Barbara was getting kinda long in the tooth towards the end of her tenure. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/43 "2004-06-08T00:42:42Z")
> [@Julius Henry](#): > > If we really want to get picky, Helena Bertinelli (The Huntress) briefly patroled Gotham City as Batgirl. Batman and Oracle made her stop and gave her costume to Cassandra Cain. This brings us up to 4 Batgirls, two of whom were named for Bob Kane. Pfft. There is no Helena Bertinelli. There is only Helena Wayne. I refuse to acknowledge the Crisis… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/44 "2004-06-08T00:57:26Z")
**tracer** , um, thanks, I guess… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/45 "2004-06-08T01:16:26Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Pfft. There is no Helena Bertinelli. Sure, there is. Didn’t she marry that Van Halen guy? ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/46 "2004-06-08T03:14:18Z")
**tracer** , that was absolutely brilliant. That is easily one of, if not _the_, best posts I have ever read on this board in the year and a half I have been a member. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/47 "2004-06-08T16:25:26Z")
Actually, **tracer’s** evolution history is incomplete. He didn’t cover the development of human civilization, the invention writing, the development of fiction as a form of literature, the invention of the printing press, the subsequent development of the comic book as a literary genre, the transmutation of mythology from tales of gods and demigod-type heroes to more “scientific” explanations of where superheroes get their powers, and the development of “normal” human beings as a subset of superheroes. BTW, are there any “Dark Knight” backstory books available that give the history of what happened just leading up to Batman’s ten year retirement? Not to mention what happened during… like, Superman seems to have an arm that belongs to the Green Arrow, how’d that happen? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/48 "2004-06-08T16:35:25Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > BTW, are there any “Dark Knight” backstory books available that give the history of what happened just leading up to Batman’s ten year retirement? Not to mention what happened during… like, Superman seems to have an arm that belongs to the Green Arrow, how’d that happen? Not exactly - however, there’s a hint. Green Arrow died awhile back, y’see… something to do with a bomb in an airplane. His arm was stuck… to save him, Superman (who was on the scene) would’ve had to have cut Arrow’s arm off - and in GA’s words, “What good’s an archer with one arm?” GA refused to be saved, and blew up real good. Which leads me to think that the writer of that tale had DK in mind as an alternative future of that event - where Superman saved GA by cutting off his arm. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/49 "2004-06-08T18:39:37Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Not exactly - however, there’s a hint. Green Arrow died awhile back, y’see… something to do with a bomb in an airplane. His arm was stuck… to save him, Superman (who was on the scene) would’ve had to have cut Arrow’s arm off - and in GA’s words, “What good’s an archer with one arm?” GA refused to be saved, and blew up real good. Guess he never heard of [Carroll Walker](http://www.joplinglobe.com/story.php?story_id=105375&c=101). ---
**Author:** ![noname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58f4c7/32.png) [@noname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/noname)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/50 "2004-06-09T21:21:08Z")
This thread is the most informative one _ever_ about Batman. But I have one q. Where does Ra’s Al Ghul fit in the story? Or is he a recent addition? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/51 "2004-06-09T21:45:00Z")
> [@noname](#): > > This thread is the most informative one _ever_ about Batman. But I have one q. Where does Ra’s Al Ghul fit in the story? Or is he a recent addition? His first appearance was in _Batman_ #232 in June of 1971. His daughter, Talia, was a perennial almost-romance for Batman. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/52 "2004-06-09T23:17:29Z")
I know diddly about the subject, and this seems to be the perfect forum to answer the trivia question I was recently asked: was the Batpole a TV series invention, or did it appear in the comics prior to that? ---
**Author:** ![Julius\_Henry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@Julius\_Henry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Julius_Henry)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/53 "2004-06-09T23:23:32Z")
The Batpole is from the TV series. The comics have a secret stairway that one enters through a grandfather clock. ---
**Author:** ![Murcielago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Murcielago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Murcielago)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/54 "2004-06-09T23:33:26Z")
More trivia: There was also an underground route to the cave accessed through an old barn on the outskirts of the Wayne estate. It was used in the early days of the comic and revisited in a recent storyline. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/55 "2004-06-09T23:49:30Z")
> [@Julius Henry](#): > > The Batpole is from the TV series. The comics have a secret stairway that one enters through a grandfather clock. Not quite. In the 60’s, the comics had “batpoles” shown in drawings of the batcave. Rarely or never used in the comics. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/56 "2004-06-10T00:25:49Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > _re: Hush_ > > He wasn’t, dammit. That woulda been good. Instead it’s Batman’s childhood friend who was pissed that Papa Wayne didn’t save his daddy or something equally stoopid Not quite. He was mad that Dr. Wayne SUCCEEDED in saving his father (or was it his mother? I forget). He WANTED both his parents to die, so he could inherit, and arranged the “accident” that injured them. And you forget to mention who the mastermind was behind the whole thing… ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/57 "2004-06-10T00:55:11Z")
Re Harlequin Several characters going by that name (OTTOMH, a villainess who wore a conical cap, ruff, tutu, and striped tights and ended up marrying Green Lantern Alan Scott. An illusion casting villainess who wore a purple and white body suit with a diamond motif, and tried to woo Scott away from his wife. And I think I’m forgetting somebody) by that name have been around for years. They have nothing to do with this, so just forget I mentioned them. But reaction to the Harley Quinn of the cartoon was great enough that she was made canon in the graphic novel Harlequin. She had her own ongoing title for a while. She is nearly identical to the character from the animated series. However, an injection given to her by Poison Ivy (who, just like in the cartoon, becomes Harley’s best friend) rendered her immune to toxins, and unexpectedly gave her slightly superhuman levels of agility, strength and speed. Harley was also given more history and personality. After getting into college on a gymnastics scholarship, and exchanging sex for good grades. Harley managed to get a job as a therapist at Arkham (these details match the animated version). However, the comics reveal that Harley’s plan was to treat the Joker and the other famous criminals for a few years, then write selfhelp books and get her own talkshow. Instead, she fell in love with her Mistah Jay. Harley is also obsessed with the idea of true love and sees herself as a matchmaker. She avoided killing two detectives who were after her, because she was convinced that they were destined to fall in love. After throwing a bomb behind them, she watches them jump off a balcony and says to herself ‘That’s it! Take her hand! Yes! Now, in a moment of life-affirming joy, kiss!’ Harley realizes that her relationship with the Joker isn’t healthy. However, one of the reasons the Joker abuses her and keeps trying to kill her is because he really does love her. He isn’t used to caring about another person, and his feelings for Harley frighten him. Harley’s comic was bizarre, whimsical, homicidal and a great showcase for her. Then, a new artist decided to make things dark and gritty and a new writer decided to make the comic hardboiled detective noir, mob wars, and international espionage. It sucked beyond words. The series was cancelled. Harley still turns up in other series and has a miniseries with her and Ivy out now. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/58 "2004-06-10T04:35:07Z")
I watched the animated series(the newer one, but not the Beyond one) for a long time as a kid and probably saw every episode. Though now that I’m older, one thing bugs me. What time period was that set in? I remember most of the cars looked like they were from the 30’s and 40’s, the police used blimps, and wore old uniforms. However, I remember Supercomputers, Robots, Genetic Engineering and Satillites. Did they ever explain this or was it just a stylistic choice? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/59 "2004-06-10T05:04:21Z")
IIRC The folks responsible for the distinctive look of the cartoon (I have no idea what their names are), mentioned in interviews with Wizard and such that they wanted a dark retro look with IIRC some art deco features. But, I got the impression that the cartoon was set in the present day. OTTOMH, the episode that featured the origin of the Riddler featured a video game sold for home computers. The second part of the two part Clayface origin includes a scene at the taping of an infomercial. A Harley Quinn episode has her panicking when she buys a dress and walks out of the store before the clerk can remove the anti-theft device, and alarms go off. Many episodes include video tapes and vcr’s. ---
**Author:** ![Murcielago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Murcielago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Murcielago)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/60 "2004-06-10T05:39:42Z")
I remember reading that the idea for the animated series was to create an eclectic world which was timeless and yet consistent within itself. Much of the visual syle was 40s noir, the gangster elements were similar to the films of the 20s and 30s, architecture both Gothic and Art-Deco. Along with that they have satellites, computers, and modern media. I thought it worked remarkably well, I can’t recall a time where anything seemed wildly out of place. When you are dealing with a character who has been 30-ish for over 60 years, I suppose it calls for a bit of creativity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048.md?page=4)