# Somebody explain the evolution of Batman to me **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 7, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048 "2004-06-07T03:22:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/61 "2004-06-10T06:51:01Z")
Could somebody spoilerbox out the various levels of revealing who Hush “is”? It’s not the ultimate secret, but it is one of the big reveals that made that particular story so interesting (as it was a source of major fan frenzy before it was revealed: there were many clues scattered about prior to the first big reveal). We should also note that Batman’s supreme badassness came about in part not form his own title, but because he was part of the Justice League. Given that he was on a team that included people who could win a boxing match with a meteor, read minds, move near the speed of light, and so on, they had to find reasons to make him useful. The result was the infamous claim that Batman could beat ANYONE… if you know, he had time to prepare. This idea carried over to the JL animated series in which Batman goes toe to toe with some pretty improbably powerful foes and inexplicably kicks their asses. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/62 "2004-06-10T07:53:37Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Harley managed to get a job as a therapist at Arkham (these details match the animated version). However, the comics reveal that Harley’s plan was to treat the Joker and the other famous criminals for a few years, then write selfhelp books and get her own talkshow. Instead, she fell in love with her Mistah Jay. Oddly enough, the animated origin/backstory for Harley Quinn was first given in the one-shot comic book **Mad Love,** written by Paul Dini. It was later adapted as a half-hour episode of the series. And the look of the Batman animated series was referred to in-house as “Dark Deco.” I believe head artist Bruce Timm said he was somewhat inspired by the Max Fleischer **Superman** cartoons of yore. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/63 "2004-06-10T13:55:41Z")
**Rjung** I’ve read Mad Love. It’s a panel in Mad Love that makes it clear how Harley got through college. She’s walking out of a professor’s office. The professor is smiling. His hair is mussed. His tie is undone. He has lipstick marks on his face. Considering the state of his clothes, it’s likely they’ve just finished having sex. On the desk is a paper with Harleen Quinzel on it. The grade (I can’t remember if it was an F, or a D) has been strongly crossed out and replaced with an A. IMHO One of the very few good things about the Birds Of Prey television series was Mia Sara’s portrayal of Harley Quin. Re Comissioner Gordon And Secret Identities I think it was Frank Miller who introduced the idea the Jim Gordon figured out Batman’s identity a long time ago. However, as he supports Batman’s work and sees him as something of an adopted son (Bruce also sees Gordon as an adopted father), Gordon has deliberately not done any formal investigation into the matter, left any record of it, or ever asked Bruce or Batman about it. In an episode of the animated series, Barbara decides to tell her father that she’s BatGirl. She says that she has something important to tell him, something that she’s wanted to tell him for years. He stops her and says “Barbara, you’re not a little girl anymore. You’re an adult. You don’t need me to approve of your choices. And in this case, I can’t. But, I love you. _All_ of you. And that is all I have to say in the matter.” In the aforementioned Hush (nonspoiler), Bats mentions in one of his thought balloons that he believes Perry White (editor in chief of the Daily Planet) has figured out Clark’s secret identity in the same way Gordon has figured out his. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/64 "2004-06-10T15:57:58Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > We should also note that Batman’s supreme badassness came about in part not form his own title, but because he was part of the Justice League. Given that he was on a team that included people who could win a boxing match with a meteor, read minds, move near the speed of light, and so on, they had to find reasons to make him useful. The result was the infamous claim that Batman could beat ANYONE… if you know, he had time to prepare. This idea carried over to the JL animated series in which Batman goes toe to toe with some pretty improbably powerful foes and inexplicably kicks their asses. I must respectfully disagree, to some extent. What you say about Batman’s abilities, as compared to some of the others, is quite true. However, we have to keep in mind we’re dealing with the World’s Greatest Detective, here, and a man who has made a life out of figuring out how to take people down… no matter how tough, no matter how powerful… in a variety of ways. One of the plot points in both Frank Miller’s Batman stories is how Superman never had to think his way out of anything; he had superpowers to use. Batman did not, and therefore had to be super smart in order to compete. Furthermore, Batman has had to deal with any number of superhuman nuts in Gotham, with or without the Justice League… and has therefore had to rise to the occasion, because These Guys Had To Be Beaten. Sure, you or I may be able to kick Sherlock Holmes’ ass, hand to hand… but I sure wouldn’t wanna give him a chance to think or speak. He’d hand me my head. And even then, he was no slouch when it came to fisticuffs. How much worse, then, could Batman be? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/65 "2004-06-10T18:44:39Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > Actually, **tracer’s** evolution history is incomplete. He didn’t cover the development of human civilization, the invention writing, the development of fiction as a form of literature, the invention of the printing press, the subsequent development of the comic book as a literary genre, the transmutation of mythology from tales of gods and demigod-type heroes to more “scientific” explanations of where superheroes get their powers, and the development of “normal” human beings as a subset of superheroes. But dem things ain’t **evolution**! Biologically, human beings are no different now than they were when they first started developing Civilization 10-12 thousand years ago. (Heck, western Europeans and Australian aborigines can still interbreed, and they’ve been out of touch with each other for 40-50 thousand years.) ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/66 "2004-06-10T22:25:34Z")
> [@noname](#): > > This thread is the most informative one _ever_ about Batman. But I have one q. Where does Ra’s Al Ghul fit in the story? Or is he a recent addition? As **jayjay** said, he’s been around for a while, and is arguably Batman’s most formidable foe. The first “arc” (which is actually a set of stories that was published intemittently of a period of a couple of years) is collected in _Batman: Tales of the Demon_. The animated series episodes are essentially a compressed version of the storyline, I believe. I need to start collecting the B:TAS DVDs, since they stopped airing the show in my area. ---
**Author:** ![noname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58f4c7/32.png) [@noname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/noname)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/67 "2004-06-10T23:41:47Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > As **jayjay** said, he’s been around for a while, and is arguably Batman’s most formidable foe. The first “arc” (which is actually a set of stories that was published intemittently of a period of a couple of years) is collected in _Batman: Tales of the Demon_. The animated series episodes are essentially a compressed version of the storyline, I believe. > > I need to start collecting the B:TAS DVDs, since they stopped airing the show in my area. But isnt he supposed to be the mentor of Batman or something? sort of like a friend-turned-foe? From what I read online, it seems Bruce travelled east where he met Al Ghul ([slight hijack]Where do they some up with such names??? Is there a comic code that says that superheroes and villans cannot have regular names, like jack, ahmed or **noname** :wally ?[/slight hijack]), who mentored him. Is this true? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/68 "2004-06-10T23:49:15Z")
> [@noname](#): > > But isnt he supposed to be the mentor of Batman or something? sort of like a friend-turned-foe? From what I read online, it seems Bruce travelled east where he met Al Ghul ([slight hijack]Where do they some up with such names??? Is there a comic code that says that superheroes and villans cannot have regular names, like jack, ahmed or **noname** :wally ?[/slight hijack]), who mentored him. Is this true? Actually, Ra’s Al Ghul means “Demon’s head” in Arabic, I believe. Thus, the title of the Al Ghul’s debut story, “Daughter of the Demon.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/69 "2004-06-11T01:56:24Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > But dem things ain’t **evolution**! Biologically, human beings are no different now than they were when they first started developing Civilization 10-12 thousand years ago. (Heck, western Europeans and Australian aborigines can still interbreed, and they’ve been out of touch with each other for 40-50 thousand years.) Um, you know Batman is a comic book character, right? ---
**Author:** ![noname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58f4c7/32.png) [@noname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/noname)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/70 "2004-06-11T10:31:07Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Actually, Ra’s Al Ghul means “Demon’s head” in Arabic, I believe. " You’re right, it does mean that. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/71 "2004-06-11T17:13:52Z")
Re Ras Al Ghul The one thing I never understood was why they went with this spelling. It’s pronounced Raysh. Though there may be subtleties to the pronunciation I’ve missed, I’d think Reish would be a better spelling. Heving only read about him, Terry McGinnis calls him ‘Rahss’. Though noncanon, there are at least two alternate futures in which Bruce and Talia have a son. Non Spoilers In Brotherhood Of The Bat (and It’s hideous sequel, The League Of Batmen), Bruce is long dead. Al Ghul has thrown the world into chaos. Talia reveals to her son, Tallant, his father’s identity and legacy. Non Spoilers In Kingdom Come, Ibn Al Xufash (Son Of The Bat) has succeeded Al Ghul, and has serious issues with his father. The animated episodes featuring Al Ghul are definitely worth watching. David Warner (Sark in Tron, among many other roles) is excellent as Al Ghul. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/72 "2004-06-11T19:59:28Z")
Astronomy buffs may connect this name with the star Beta Persei, familiarly known as Algol, which, after an intermediate stage of Al Ghul, came from the Arabic Ras al Ghul, the Demon’s Head. Algol was the first variable star known to telescopic astronomers. There have been speculations that naked-eye astronomers also noticed its variability and that the Demon name was placed on it because it was unlike all the other - constant - stars in the sky. It may even go back earlier. The Romans appeared to call it Caput Larvae, the Specter’s Head, while the Chinese referred to it by Tsieh She (by some transliteration system or other), a name that apparently translates as the piled-up corpses. Which brings us around again to Batman’s Ras al Ghul. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/73 "2004-06-11T20:34:52Z")
> [@Murcielago](#): > > Just a warning about the _Dark Knight Returns_ sequel, **Mango**. It is awful. Not merely a let-down as are most sequels are, but genuinely awful. DK2 is a senseless, narcissistic mess, and it doesn’t deserve to be stored in the same room, much less on the same bookshelf, as The Dark Knight Returns. That being said, it’s way too fun to be flat-out awful. Such perfect eye-candy. ---
**Author:** ![BytopianDream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9de0a6/32.png) [@BytopianDream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BytopianDream)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/74 "2004-06-11T21:29:29Z")
So how do most people feel about Batman: Beyond? The few shows I caught I enjoyed. Has it been made into a comic? Is it hated or liked? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/75 "2004-06-11T22:52:02Z")
Batman Beyond Anytime I’ve heard the series brought up at a comic store or such, the consensus seems to be that it’s great. I agree. Great look and character designs. Interesting new characters- Ink, Blight, Mad Stan, Spellbinder, Stalker etc. Did some great things with old characters- Barbara Gordon, Mister Freeze, Bane. I just wish it had answered some of the questions it raised- What happened to Dick Grayson and Tim Drake? Just how did Powers gain so much control of Wayne Industries? Is the Joker dead (We see a skeleton clad in Joker clothes in a shot of a cave the Joker gang uses for initiations, but it’s not clear if it’s actually the Joker’s bones.)? If so, how and when did he die? What happened to Harley (I read in an interview that they had thought of hinting that she had reformed and become President by having a news announcer in the background say ‘In other news today, President Quinzel . . .’). ---
**Author:** ![Murcielago](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/da6949/32.png) [@Murcielago](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Murcielago)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2004, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/76 "2004-06-11T23:48:39Z")
_Batman Beyond_ is justified by the _Return of the Joker_ movie alone, the uncut version delivers a great story. In the episodes, I thought they did a good job with character development and art design. IMO, the “suit” led to some of the traditional “super-power” stuff which I don’t much care for. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Moody Bastard** > \*DK2 is a senseless, narcissistic mess, and it doesn’t deserve to be stored in the same room, much less on the same bookshelf, as The Dark Knight Returns. That being said, it’s way too fun to be flat-out awful. > > Such perfect eye-candy\*. I get you, though for me the artwork was lost under the weight of what I considered terrible characters and a meandering story. I’m probably not the best judge, since I know none of the DC chracters outside of the Batman TPBs. I was a fan of the WB Batman animated series, then a University roommate had _DK Returns_, _Watchmen_, _Ronin_ and a few other titles. Since then I’ve read stuff like _Transmetropolitan_, _Preacher_, and _Planetary_, but not the traditional superhero titles. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/77 "2004-06-12T03:00:52Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I just wish it had answered some of the questions it raised- What happened to Dick Grayson and Tim Drake? Just how did Powers gain so much control of Wayne Industries? Is the Joker dead (We see a skeleton clad in Joker clothes in a shot of a cave the Joker gang uses for initiations, but it’s not clear if it’s actually the Joker’s bones.)? If so, how and when did he die? What happened to Harley (I read in an interview that they had thought of hinting that she had reformed and become President by having a news announcer in the background say ‘In other news today, President Quinzel . . .’). Alot of this was answered in the BB: Return of the Joker movie, which it is worth tracking down the uncut version of. It answers the Joker/Harley/Drake questions. As for Grayson, he’s mentioned either in that movie or elsewhere in the series by Barbara. He’s still kicking around as Nightwing I believe. As for Powers, I think it was mostly just that Wayne had neglected his company for so long as Batman that other stockholders had sort of taken over. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/78 "2004-06-12T03:15:42Z")
> [@](#): > > However, we have to keep in mind we’re dealing with the World’s Greatest Detective, here, and a man who has made a life out of figuring out how to take people down… no matter how tough, no matter how powerful… in a variety of ways. I’m not saying the development is wrong, just that this is how it happened. Batman wasn’t always a guy who could go toe to toe with Darkseid or Caliback. > [@](#): > > One of the plot points in both Frank Miller’s Batman stories is how Superman never had to think his way out of anything; he had superpowers to use. Batman did not, and therefore had to be super smart in order to compete. Furthermore, Batman has had to deal with any number of superhuman nuts in Gotham, with or without the Justice League… and has therefore had to rise to the occasion, because These Guys Had To Be Beaten. Yes, I shouldn’t have left this out: Frank Miller was indeed partly responsible for the idea that Batman could be a world-class badass. That was where the idea first came into full view. I’m not saying it rings false, just that it’s part of Batman’s development from guy in tights with a gun to the guy that kicks the ass of White Martians twice over. What sort of rings false is that he is often seen going hand to hand and holding his own with monsters that can knock over buildings with one punch. THAT’S a little excessive. ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/79 "2004-06-12T06:19:06Z")
[One-Nine-Hundred](http://robin.oscillating.net/') is a fansite I’ve enjoyed. It has a pretty good biography and a breakdown of the phone poll and some of its associated stories. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048/80 "2004-06-12T18:20:41Z")
_:: tries to think of something constructive to add to this thread ::_ I saw a bat this one time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/somebody-explain-the-evolution-of-batman-to-me/249048.md?page=5)