# Someone give Cecil a remedial grammar lesson! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [January 16, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825 "2004-01-16T19:56:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/1 "2004-01-16T19:56:56Z")
Cecil, in a fit of insanity, titled [this column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040116.html) “Does it take less muscles to smile than it does to frown?” Now, we all know that “less” is used with mass nouns, and “fewer” with nouns referring to discrete entities. “Muscles” are discrete, so “fewer” would be correct here, not “less”. At least he said “fewer” in the text of the column. Shame on you, Cecil, for abusing the English language so! ---
**Author:** ![Faldage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Faldage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faldage)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/2 "2004-01-16T20:48:28Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > “less” is used with mass nouns, and “fewer” with nouns referring to discrete entities. How we get by with “more” for both is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/3 "2004-01-16T21:11:47Z")
I noticed this, too, but decided to give Cecil the benefit of the doubt. I don’t think he is personally responsible for the wording of the headlines of the column, and you’ll note that in the text of the column he correctly uses “fewer.” ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/4 "2004-01-17T03:13:28Z")
Yep. Titles you blame on the editor. Poor Ed. ---
**Author:** ![cdhostage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@cdhostage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cdhostage)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/5 "2004-01-17T17:12:12Z")
Methinks he quoted the original question verbatim, and didn’t gang up on it in the text because he’s getting kind in his middle age. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/6 "2004-01-17T17:44:21Z")
I’ll bet he did quote the original question verbatim, but it doesn’t use the word “less.” ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/7 "2004-01-17T17:46:41Z")
but Cecil did not object when the questioner stated that not smiling is pretty much the same as frowning. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/8 "2004-01-17T18:34:21Z")
> [@Faldage](#): > > How we get by with “more” for both is beyond me. We don’t. Properly, the pair for “fewer” is “greater.” ---
**Author:** ![rkts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@rkts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rkts)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/9 "2004-01-17T19:15:54Z")
> [@](#): > > We don’t. Properly, the pair for “fewer” is “greater.” According to my dictionary, _more_ is the proper comparative form of _many_, just as _fewer_ is the proper comparative form of _few_. _Greater_ doesn’t even make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Cecil\_Adams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cecil\_Adams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cecil_Adams)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/10 "2004-01-19T16:47:30Z")
You understand, of course, that the author of the column (and of most newspaper articles, for that matter) doesn’t write the headline. I have directed my henchmen to make the necessary change. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/11 "2004-01-19T17:14:48Z")
Ahh, so _this_ is what it takes to bring out the Perfect Master! ---
**Author:** ![whitetho](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whitetho/32/1059_2.png) [@whitetho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitetho)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/12 "2004-01-19T18:55:33Z")
> [@Cecil Adams (All Hail Unca Cece!)](#): > > I have directed my henchmen to make the necessary change. For anyone who might think Mr. Adams doesn’t really take these things seriously, heed ye the following from [The FAQ](http://straightdope.com/faq/officialfaq.html): “Veteran Straight Dope readers may remember that a column once referred to ‘talking books for the deaf.’ Very funny. It was a new copyboy’s first day on the job. His body has never been found.” ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/13 "2004-01-23T23:46:35Z")
I sure hope **Unca Cece** brought his his smiting stick w/ him. He promised me way back last August to do so. That was before that terrible day the ball landed foul out on the grass or somewhere it shouldn’t have been. 😉 Hi, **UC** ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/14 "2004-01-24T01:04:27Z")
> [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > We don’t. Properly, the pair for “fewer” is “greater.” So rather than “Does it take fewer muscles to smile than it does to frown?” the question could have been “Does it take greater muscles to frown than it does to smile?” This is clearly horribly wrong. I think the correct pair for both “fewer” and “less” in terms of mass or count nouns is “more”. ---
**Author:** ![blahedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@blahedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blahedo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/15 "2004-01-25T04:18:00Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > Cecil, in a fit of insanity, titled [this column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040116.html) “Does it take less muscles to smile than it does to frown?” Now, we all know that “less” is used with mass nouns, and “fewer” with nouns referring to discrete entities. “Muscles” are discrete, so “fewer” would be correct here, not “less”. At least he said “fewer” in the text of the column. > > Shame on you, Cecil, for abusing the English language so! Now, now, I’ve argued with you about this before, **KellyM** : “less” with count nouns is a totally valid dialectal usage, and very common. I suppose, though, that the objection is _marginally_ valid in that a column and its title might be presumed to be in standard English… still, though, I get a bit annoyed whenever anyone makes this particular ‘correction’. ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/16 "2004-01-25T17:40:42Z")
> [@KellyM](#): > > Now, we all know that “less” is used with mass nouns, and “fewer” with nouns referring to discrete entities. “Muscles” are discrete, so “fewer” would be correct here, not “less”. At least he said “fewer” in the text of the column. I was all ready to jump on YOU for using “discrete” until I noticed that you actually USED IT CORRECTLY. Thank you! I swear, if I see one more post with something like “I want to keep this relationship discrete” meaning “discreet,” I will go postal. The whole less vs. fewer thing is a personal pet peeve. It annoys me no end. I’m glad to see I’m not the only one. Hail Cecil! ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/17 "2004-01-25T17:48:19Z")
> [@blahedo](#): > > Now, now, I’ve argued with you about this before, **KellyM** : “less” with count nouns is a totally valid dialectal usage, and very common. I know we’ve had this argument before, and I still disagree with you. I don’t care how many people use “less” with discrete plurals, it’s still wrong. Someone has to defend the English language. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-give-cecil-a-remedial-grammar-lesson/224825/18 "2004-01-25T18:01:49Z")
Just a quick observation, not intended to contradict **KellyM** ’s desire for accuracy in language: there are (rare but real) occasions when “less” is proper with discrete objects – when the particular category of object comes in variable sizes or weights, and what is desired to be stressed is the aggregate quantity, not the specific number of objects. “Be sure to use at least 200 pounds of bricks; do not use less” is accurate – it does not matter whether you use 200 one-pound bricks or 20 ten-pound bricks, which is certainly fewer in quantity; what is being stressed is the minimum aggregate weight of bricks needed.