# Someone has to pit this mass-murdering bastard. (Germanwings crash) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036 "2015-03-26T16:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/61 "2015-03-27T23:20:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Fine, dismiss this as the act of someone impossible to understand, make no attempt to learn anything, and consider yourself magically protected from such a bad thing occurring in the future. > > Me, I’d rather we learn _something_ from this tragedy that can help others in the future if at all possible. I learned something. Stick with airlines that have stringent mental health policies for their pilots. I don’t need to learn anything else. GermanWings does. And probably a lot of other airlines. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/62 "2015-03-27T23:30:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There are a bunch of things that are “minor” in other context but can get you medically grounded for 6 months or longer. That’s the rules. > > For example, let’s say you need eye surgery of some sort, maybe an incipient cataract, maybe an injury of some sort. Most folks could go back to work in a week or two at most, but the FAA usually says 6 months. > > It’s not enough to be simply functional, you have to be HIGHLY functional. > > From the viewpoint of the airlines pilots are a disposable commodity. It’s not worth fixing a broken one, just throw that one out and get a new one. The problem with the US rule about not flying if you have depression: it tempts pilots to conceal the depression. I know a US-based amateur pilot who says it’s not uncommon for pilots with depression to simply try to tough it out, rather than getting treatment that would ground them, possibly for life. So instead of having pilots with treated depression, the way you would without that rule, you’ve got pilots with untreated depression. That can’t be a good thing. Not that this is relevant here. Plenty of people are depressed; some commit suicide, and it’s a terrible tragedy. But they don’t deliberately take 150 others with them. No matter how hard I try to feel compassion for this guy, I keep coming back to that. Regardless of what mental conditions he may or may not have had, he was a mass-murdering fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/63 "2015-03-27T23:59:53Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > So instead of having pilots with treated depression, **the way you would without that rule** , you’ve got pilots with untreated depression. That can’t be a good thing. _Hopefully_ there’d be pilots with treated depression, without that rule. But it’s far from any sort of guarantee. It’s common knowledge that depression carries a social stigma and admitting one suffers from it, much less seeking treatment for it, can be a difficult thing to do. Especially among men, who make up the majority of airline pilots. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/64 "2015-03-28T00:27:13Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Fine, dismiss this as the act of someone impossible to understand, make no attempt to learn anything, and consider yourself magically protected from such a bad thing occurring in the future. What’s to learn? Crazy people are crazy. And we can’t guard against everything. I knew that years ago. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/65 "2015-03-28T00:31:34Z")
There was a thread recently about pilotless planes. One argument against them is people feel safer with a human pilot there. As driverless cars become more common, the public may be more amenable to computer-piloted planes, with a pilot who can be overridden by the computer if he/she does something crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/66 "2015-03-28T00:38:19Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > What’s to learn? Crazy people are crazy. And we can’t guard against everything. I knew that years ago. Well, the first thing you could learn is likely to not dismiss an actual health issue in such a cavalier manner. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/67 "2015-03-28T00:43:07Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Well, the first thing you could learn is likely to not dismiss an actual health issue in such a cavalier manner. I dunno. Yes, depression is an actual health issue, but most do not deal with depression by murdering people during suicide. Maybe some, like those who run in traffic, but 150 people? Effecting 150 families and friends? I think depression he had was about the amount that a cherry in an Old Fashioned brings to the drink. He had other issues too. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/68 "2015-03-28T00:49:00Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > The problem with the US rule about not flying if you have depression: it tempts pilots to conceal the depression. I know a US-based amateur pilot who says it’s not uncommon for pilots with depression to simply try to tough it out, rather than getting treatment that would ground them, possibly for life. So instead of having pilots with treated depression, the way you would without that rule, you’ve got pilots with untreated depression. That can’t be a good thing. The rules recently changed in the US with regards to people with depression, even those on medication for it. I’m not up on all the details but apparently they _are_ now allowing some pilots with mental health issues to fly, but under some strict supervision specifically because of that “tough it out” issue and desire to have people with a problem seek help. I should also note that if you are prescribed medication for a medical condition the FAA will require you to take it if that’s what you need to function. In which case, a pilot with mental health problems would be _required_ to comply with all medication and treatment in order to keep his or her license. As I said, I don’t know all the details but I think we shouldn’t assume the current landscape in regards to pilots is the same as it was 10 years ago when I was an active pilot and undergoing regular medical checkups to keep my license. I also know amateur pilots frequently are not as up to date on the rules as they should be. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > _Hopefully_ there’d be pilots with treated depression, without that rule. But it’s far from any sort of guarantee. It’s common knowledge that depression carries a social stigma and admitting one suffers from it, much less seeking treatment for it, can be a difficult thing to do. Especially among men, who make up the majority of airline pilots. Yep, and many in aviation, male or female, also carry a similar bias. Not everyone with a mental health problem is going to be suicidal. Howard Hughes, for example, suffered from OCD that was eventually crippling but there is no indication it ever interfered with his ability to fly an airplane. Maybe if we learn more about mental problems we can come up with truly effective treatments for people, as well as distinguishing between those who can be allowed to safely use their talents and training and those who really do need to be restrained from certain professions or activities. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/69 "2015-03-28T02:46:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I’d like to add to this pitting: > > I pit the dumbasses commenters on news websites who (as soon as the news broke), could only talk about “muslims mullims muslims” > > Folks chimed in about how they “had proof” that this was a Muslim terrorist act. > > This is in the National Post (Canada). I’ve seen more and more of this lately, as the racist fucks become more emboldened to spew their messages of hatred. Perhaps not so coincidentallly, this has coincided with the Federal Conservative Party changing the conversation ahead of the next election, away from the tanking economy, and towards FEAR OF MUSLIMS as the central plank in the upcoming election. > > Sigh… deserves it’s own pit thread. The yahoos on Yahoo STILL insist that he was a muslim. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/70 "2015-03-28T08:45:44Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > He set the autopilot to descend to the minimum altitude and then locked the door. Do you suppose that he did these two things - and only those two things - by accident? This is not according to my reports. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/71 "2015-03-28T10:29:28Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > The guy was in training, and it looks like he chose the length of the break. Assuming that’s true, I don’t see how he should ever have been allowed to fly. And if the rules cleared him to fly, then I’ll just not fly that airline until the planes are entirely computer-controlled. > > The thing that \*really \* is concerning is that this airline’s policies on mental health are so different than those used by airlines based in the US. That speaks of a worrying cultural problem in this case, one that may pop up in other ways later. Unsafe ways. Yeah. I blame that fat fuck Goering. Now could you explain what the mental health issues are that make US airspace so safe to fly? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/72 "2015-03-28T11:18:28Z")
According to the BBC theDusseldorf University Clinic, which treated him in February and March of this year has stated that the illness they treated him for was NOT depression. In other words, there was something else going on with him as well. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/73 "2015-03-28T11:39:21Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > I learned something. Stick with airlines that have stringent mental health policies for their pilots. I don’t need to learn anything else. GermanWings does. And probably a lot of other airlines. You might have missed when I asked before, what are the mental health policies of US airlines? ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/74 "2015-03-28T11:58:14Z")
> [@get\_lives](#): > > I learned something. Stick with airlines that have stringent mental health policies for their pilots. I don’t need to learn anything else. GermanWings does. And probably a lot of other airlines. … and is a mental health policy going to be able to predict, with 100% unerring accuracy, the actions of its pilots on any given flight? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/75 "2015-03-28T12:05:55Z")
I have not had time to confirm this or look into the details, but what I most recently heard from the standpoint of the FAA was this (paraphrased - do not use as a direct quote): Pilots with a mental health issue should undergo appropriate treatment until their condition is stabilized. If they pass an evaluation (keeping in mind the FAA is mainly concerned with whether or not a pilot can control and aircraft AND is not a danger _to others)_ they can return to flying with monitoring and any medication appropriate to their condition. Individual airlines can have more restrictive policies than the FAA - United, for example, has significantly stricter vision requirements than the FAA or Southwest Airlines. However, again, what I’ve heard is that a pilot that tells his/her employer about such an issue is typically put on disability leave for year to get his/her shit straightened out. What this means is that US pilots can, apparently, seek treatment for mental illnesses without automatically losing their jobs and/or careers. It’s still a big risk for the pilot, of course, because there is still enormous stigma attached to ANY mental or physical issue in a pilot, especially the higher up the ladder you go. It means that if a pilot does have a mental illness he (hell with it, most are still men, just remember this applies to the girls as well as the boys) can still fly so long as that illness does not pose a danger to others. This does, however, have to be disclosed to the FAA and the employer - if you turn up with prozac in your urine without jumping through those hoops first Og help you. It also means that if a pilot was prescribed a medication - let’s use prozac again as an example - he is _required_ to be compliant if he wants to keep his job. If he’s disclosed he has a diagnosed problem and been prescribed prozac Og help him if he _doesn’t_ have it in his urine on a drug test. Of course, some medications are automatically disqualifying. Which ones, exactly, I’m not sure about. I’m reasonably sure prozac is on the allowed-with-permission list but there are probably others. From one standpoint this is a good thing - you ARE encouraging people to get treatment for their problems. One can be mentally ill and not be a danger to others, and in fact that probably is the more typical situation. Sure, some of these pilots might be able to tough it out without medication (pilots have done just that throughout aviation history) but these folks might well be performing even better when their conditions are properly treated. On the downside, there’s the problem of determining just who is and isn’t really a danger to others, our screening is far from perfect. Then again, it’s not perfect for physical ailments, either. One note - you may have noticed I keep saying “a danger to others”. That’s because in the US the FAA will happily let you kill _yourself_ (well, no one likes the paperwork on dead pilots). That’s why single-seat ultralights have zero training and licensing requirements in the US - if you fly them within the regs the only thing you’re going to wreck is yourself and a corner of a cornfield. Other countries are not so liberal. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/76 "2015-03-28T13:03:44Z")
People talk about suicide, depression, glory hounds, etc. and I’m sure that’s the case, but I thought of the [imp of the perverse.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imp_of_the_Perverse) Have you ever been in a museum looking at a priceless work of art and thought to yourself, wow, I could just run up there and smash it? Or you stand on the edge of a huge drop and you’re afraid you might want to jump off? I could totally see pilots having those sorts of thoughts about flying the plane into the ground. But the door locking and preparation probably makes it too premeditated. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/77 "2015-03-28T13:22:35Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > And what statement would that be? Whee! Look at me! I’m flying! I’m crashing! [And he wanted to impress his girlfriend:](http://www.ibtimes.com/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitzs-former-girlfriend-says-he-wanted-make-people-1862484) > [@](#): > > …told a former girlfriend that he wanted to do something spectacular that would “change the system” and make everyone remember him… ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/78 "2015-03-28T13:29:02Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > He set the autopilot to descend to the minimum altitude and then locked the door. Do you suppose that he did these two things - and only those two things - by accident? What is there about the current reports that would make even _one_ of those events likely, let alone both of them without him noticing? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/79 "2015-03-28T13:53:48Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > You might have missed when I asked before, what are the mental health policies of US airlines? I can’t answer for the airlines, but I’ll try to come close to what the FAA requires. Self reporting. They rely on self reporting. If someone has a mental issue, it’s up to that person to seek treatment, and it he does, he can get disability for a period of time until his MD certifies that he’s once again safe to fly. Once he’s stable, even with the underlying problem, he may be allowed to fly again if the MD so says. If he is taking drugs like Prozac, he MUST continue to take those drugs as prescribed. If he’s caught with those drugs in his system (drug testing), and he reported it, he’s fine, if he didn’t report it, then he may face sanctions like any other drug abuse. Note. When I say MDs in this case, I’m not referring to your local doctor who has no idea what an airplane is. Most, if not all (at least when I flew) of the doctors, who are approved by the FAA to do the medicals, are pilots who understand the (physical) demands flying puts on an individual. I have, however, never heard of a psychiatrist providing medical certifications so I have no idea what the FAA does for mental cases. It seems that there must be a few of those somewhere though. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036/80 "2015-03-28T15:30:48Z")
Too bad. If the guy had merely gone apeshit and run up and down the aisles screaming about Al Qaeda and had to be forcibly restrained, rather than crashing the plane, he might’ve scored a [huge payout](http://news.yahoo.com/jetblue-pilot-yelled-during-flight-sues-airline-16m-230731819.html) for the horror he put everyone through. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someone-has-to-pit-this-mass-murdering-bastard-germanwings-crash/716036.md?page=5)