# Someone's going to drive a race car on the ceiling. REALLY! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 11, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412 "2023-10-11T18:48:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/1 "2023-10-11T18:48:53Z")
For decades people have been pointing out that since many modern race cars (Formula 1, Indy Car, etc.) have more aerodynamic downforce than they weigh, theoretically they would stick to the ceiling of a tunnel if you could get one up there going fast enough. But obviously easier said than done. Race driver Scott Mansell (no relation to F1 and Indy Car champion Nigel Mansell) has just announced that he’s going to do it, and that he has already spent hundreds of thousands of pounds to develop the car and the track to drive upside down on the top of a tunnel for five seconds, using only “organic” downforce. No fans, no centripetal force, like a Hot Wheels loop, or [Jeremy Clarkson’s lark with a Renault in a sewage tunnel](https://youtu.be/-TbpgZ2Dt0A?si=fxx-8wD6kjxPt8lJ). Only the downforce generated by the car at speed. The “tunnel” will be C-shaped, open on one side, so that spectators can watch. He’s aware of the difficulties of running an IC engine upside down, although the video doesn’t explain how he plans to solve it. (I’m thinking aerobatic aircraft engines would be worth a look.) Here’s the announcement, posted today: > **[I'm Going to Drive an F1 Car UPSIDE DOWN (really)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FI0VYx7JHs%2F)** > > 💡 Go to https://brilliant.org/DRIVER61 to get a 30-day free trial + the first 200 people will get 20% off their annual subscription!I’m going to drive an F1... ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/2 "2023-10-11T18:57:33Z")
Imagine future races on C-shaped tracks where cars are passed by driving over them, upside down. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/3 "2023-10-11T19:13:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Imagine future races on C-shaped tracks where cars are passed by driving over them, upside down. - Just hope you don’t have to brake. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/4 "2023-10-11T19:16:23Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Just hope you don’t have to brake. Where we’re going, we don’t need brakes… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/5 "2023-10-11T19:36:18Z")
Future quote from _Gumball Rally 2-Back To The Big Apple_. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/6 "2023-10-11T19:43:40Z")
I find the big deal Mansell is making this out to be a a bit OTT. It’ll be fun to watch, but it’s not as though there’s anything controversial or complicated about the physics. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/7 "2023-10-11T19:47:20Z")
The physics, no. The engineering and daredevil aspect is a pretty big deal, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/8 "2023-10-11T19:57:02Z")
All of us who ever played Mario kart wii are going to want to watch this. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/9 "2023-10-11T19:59:19Z")
It’s a significant engineering challenge, sure. But I guess what I’m getting at is that it strikes me as like a scaled-up mythbusters except that we _know the answer_ already. But I guess you could say that about going to the moon, so I’ll stop harshing the vibe! ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/10 "2023-10-11T20:08:35Z")
It’s more like dropping the hammer and the feather on the moon. We know the result in advance but it’s still remarkable to see because it’s viscerally counterintuitive. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/11 "2023-10-11T20:27:47Z")
Good analogy, @Cervaise! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/12 "2023-10-11T21:38:07Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > (I’m thinking aerobatic aircraft engines would be worth a look.) Yeah. A solved problem. Ensuring you have positive fuel supply and positive oil supply are the two biggies. Most current piston aero engines are air cooled, so liquid coolant flow isn’t an issue. That one probably needs work for this car too. The usual technique is to have multiple pickup points around the header tank for the fluid. Another one is to have a single pickup on a flexible hose with a weight on the end. The pickup will tend to end up wherever the fluid is, whether it’s moving under the influence of gravity or centripetal force. Most of these systems are only good for a short time inverted, maybe a minute or so. So not truly agnostic as to which way is local “down”, but good enough to keep the engine healthy and happy through transitions and thrashing and some amount of fully -1G compared to normal ops… ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/13 "2023-10-12T01:24:45Z")
do we know / have a feeling for the speed at which the spoilers/wings cross over 1g ?? I would assume this is a car that is highly tuned for this stunt … lots of wing and downforce ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/14 "2023-10-12T01:36:22Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > For decades people have been pointing out that since many modern race cars (Formula 1, Indy Car, etc.) have more aerodynamic downforce than they weigh, theoretically they would stick to the ceiling of a tunnel if you could get one up there going fast enough. It’s not quite that simple. Downlift depends on speed. Speed is a balance between friction on the tires and drag. Friction on the tires depends on normal force, and normal force depends on orientation. In other words, if you have a car that, at maximum speed, has a downlift of 1.1 times its weight, that’s achieved with a normal force of 2.1 times its weight. Try driving that car upside down, and now the normal force is only 0.1 times its weight, which means that friction is now much lower, which means that drag is now greater than friction, which means that the car slows down, which means it can no longer maintain that downlift, and so it falls. It’s still possible to engineer it, of course. You just have to make sure you have enough surplus. But it takes more than just having a car with more downlift than weight under normal racetrack conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/15 "2023-10-12T02:49:05Z")
That’s what I was thinking; the car not only needs to stay on the ceiling, but with enough force that it has traction to overcome the aerodynamic drag. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/16 "2023-10-12T03:20:49Z")
“Feathers hit the ground before the weight can leave the air.” ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/17 "2023-10-12T03:58:41Z")
I think they make a flex tape product that can handle that. Surely. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/18 "2023-10-12T10:26:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s still possible to engineer it, of course. You just have to make sure you have enough surplus. But it takes more than just having a car with more downlift than weight under normal racetrack conditions. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > That’s what I was thinking; the car not only needs to stay on the ceiling, but with enough force that it has traction to overcome the aerodynamic drag. Formula 1 cars have well over twice as much downforce as weight, and Mansell and his team are designing their car for that much surplus as well, as he mentions in the video. > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I think they make a flex tape product that can handle that. Surely. And we should probably suggest this to them as well, just for an additional safety margin. Thanks, Beck. 😁 ---
**Author:** ![vbob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vbob/32/4439_2.png) [@vbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vbob)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/19 "2023-10-12T11:30:55Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I think they make a flex tape product that can handle that. Surely. I was thinking Velcro®. Then the burning question would be whether to put the hooks on the tires and the fuzz on the track, or verse visa. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2023, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412/20 "2023-10-12T11:35:38Z")
Being the SD that we are,can we also discuss scenarios where the car would have to pass a strech of ceiling that is a treadmil? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/someones-going-to-drive-a-race-car-on-the-ceiling-really/991412.md?page=2)