# Something I hadn't realized about the /th/ sound in English, for ESL students **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 2, 2022, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780 "2022-02-02T05:52:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/61 "2023-04-12T13:48:21Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Some authorities argue that pronouns are a subclass of nouns. (Which is how I personally tend to look at them.) It just seems way more useful to me to consider pronouns a separate category of words from nouns. (Some reasons are mentioned in that link.) ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/62 "2023-04-12T13:59:41Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I was thinking about this theme last Thanksgiving when I was at the theatre to hear a theocratic thespian, a theanthropical threnodist. On the way home I stepped on a thorn or a thimble, and now my toe throbs. 😉 🤨 _None_ of these words are pronounced with the voiced “th” except for the articles like _the_ and _this_, which is exactly what the post you responded to said. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/63 "2023-04-12T14:06:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Art thou sure of that? > [@pulykamell](#): > > Some authorities argue that pronouns are a subclass of nouns. (Which is how I personally tend to look at them.) > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > It just seems way more useful to me to consider pronouns a separate category of words from nouns. (Some reasons are mentioned in that link.) I have been under the impression that pronouns were nouns since elementary school, which is the last time I heard anything about it until now. If ‘thou’ and ‘that’ are not nouns then my counterexample is a sentence that contains no nouns? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/64 "2023-04-12T14:09:48Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Some authorities argue that pronouns are a subclass of nouns. (Which is how I personally tend to look at them.) [My cite](https://youtu.be/koZFca8AkT0) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/65 "2023-04-12T14:17:55Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I have been under the impression that pronouns were nouns since elementary school, which is the last time I heard anything about it until now. If ‘thou’ and ‘that’ are not nouns then my counterexample is a sentence that contains no nouns? See, school-wise I was always taught as pronouns and nouns being separate classes. It wasn’t until later (college, I’m pretty sure), that I had heard the view some scholars take that the are a subclass of nouns. Both views make some sense to me (like we were classically taught that English had 12 verb tenses, but in linguistics class, under their definition, English only has two. But then there are others even arguing other numbers, as high as 24 (the usual 12 x 2 for active and passive voices), though I see one cite mentioning 26.) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/66 "2023-04-12T14:21:48Z")
I also thought there were types of words, nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs, and pronouns were a category of nouns. Proverbs are not a category of verbs though. I was born too soon to get a Schoolhouse Rock education so maybe that’s not how it works either. I’m pretty sure about the proverbs, but the pronoun thing is now unclear to me. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/67 "2023-04-12T14:34:53Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > See, school-wise I was always taught as pronouns and nouns being separate classes. It wasn’t until later (college, I’m pretty sure), that I had heard the view some scholars take that the are a subclass of nouns. Both views make some sense to me (like we were classically taught that English had 12 verb tenses, but in linguistics class, under their definition, English only has two. But then there are others even arguing other numbers, as high as 24 (the usual 12 x 2 for active and passive voices), though I see one cite mentioning 26.) Yeah, never had any of those classes. If English were an object oriented language I think pronouns would make sense as a subclass of nouns. Can’t a pronoun be replaced by the noun it refers to in a sentence? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/68 "2023-04-12T14:36:33Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I have been under the impression that pronouns were nouns since elementary school, which is the last time I heard anything about it until now. I can’t remember encountering the claim that pronouns were nouns until this very thread. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/69 "2023-04-12T14:47:24Z")
That is an sign that a serious bifurcation of American grammar education has occurred. Next thing you know people won’t agree on how to teach math. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/70 "2023-04-12T14:58:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Next thing you know people won’t agree on how to teach math. Heaven forfend! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/71 "2023-04-12T15:15:27Z")
_dhikr_, pronounced /ðɪkr/, is making its way into English dictionaries. > **[Definition of DHIKR](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dhikr)** > > the ritual formula of a Sufi brotherhood recited devotionally in praise of Allah and as a means of attaining ecstatic experience; the recitation of the dhikr; also : the period of such recitation… See the full definition [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dhikr](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dhikr) ---
**Author:** ![veryfrank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/87869e/32.png) [@veryfrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/veryfrank)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/72 "2023-04-12T16:04:44Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Parent: [Points to a picture of a rabbit] Look! What’s that? > > Child: A wabbit. > > Parent: A wabbit? > > Child: No, a wabbit. “I’m not Jewish, I’m Roman!” “A wohman, eh?” “No, no: ROMAN.” (WHACK) Anyway…came to chime in about the Welsh “Ll” sound but was beaten to it. I didn’t have much trouble picking it up. The way my teacher explained was, start to say the word “lift” but instead of following through, once your tongue is in place behind your front teeth, you just blow. It sounds like a hissing version of “th” so some non-native speakers use that as a shortcut. I’ve also heard Mancunians sublsitute a “cl” for some reason (" Hi, when’s the next train to Llandudno?" “Clanduhdno? Let me check…”). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/73 "2023-04-12T17:29:42Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > _None_ of these words are pronounced with the voiced “th” except for the articles like _the_ and _this_, which is exactly what the post you responded to said. Yeth, that wath wolfpup’th point! Being as “th”-y as possible with the initial consonants of random words in a sentence, and all of them that are nouns, verbs, or adjectives show up with the unvoiced “th”. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/74 "2023-04-12T17:38:30Z")
I don’t really know why that would be his point, since he just restated what was already said. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/75 "2023-04-12T17:40:56Z")
Is… this the first time you’ve noticed that posts sometimes humorously amplify and illustrate the claims of a previous post, rather than refuting them? ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2023, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/76 "2023-04-13T22:49:56Z")
I’m a native English speaker and I don’t get the distinction. Given that people vary pronouncing “the” as “thuh” and “thee” depending what they are stressing, the sound of the “th” is a minor thing to note. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/77 "2023-04-14T00:26:54Z")
It’s the same distinction (voicing) that separates B & P, or T & D, or J & CH, or S & Z. In a lot of languages, kedding thiz zord off think wrong woult mague you zount fery ott inteet. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/78 "2023-04-14T00:43:31Z")
You’re saying you don’t get the difference between voiced and unvoiced “th”? It’s the difference between “thin” (unvoiced) and “this” (voiced). Surely you can hear that those words begin with different sounds? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/79 "2023-04-14T01:14:02Z")
Every language has a unique set of phonemes. To learn a different language, you don’t just have to learn a different grammar, vocabulary, conjugation of words, and declension of words, you have to learn the phonology of the language. Different dialects have different phonemes too. Learn about the one-mary and three-mary dialects of American English: > **[Marry, Merry, Mary](http://dialectblog.com/2011/09/21/marry-merry-mary/)** > > \[Ed. Note: In an earlier version of this article, I suggested I pronounce ‘marry,’ ‘merry’ and ‘Mary’ differently.  The opposite is true.  I pronounce them alike… ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780/80 "2023-04-14T13:53:07Z")
Given that those words are the common examples of the difference you can presume that I can’t tell the difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-hadnt-realized-about-the-th-sound-in-english-for-esl-students/958780.md?page=5)