# Something I still don't understand \[Obama vs. Romney on the economy\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 7, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236 "2012-11-07T16:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/61 "2012-11-08T19:55:13Z")
It’s a blind spot a lot of people have. Not just conservatives, although it seems a lot of conservatives have it. They don’t see their own bias. _“Every other media source is biased towards liberals. But Fox tells it straight.”_ Really? Think about that. Every media source in the country reports the news in a biased way - but one media source is the exception and is completely free of bias? Isn’t it more likely that every media source is biased? Some (maybe most) are biased towards liberals. And some (maybe only one) is biased towards conservatives. This doesn’t mean you should stop watching biased media sources - especially if all media sources are biased. But you have to stop watching them uncritically. You can’t believe a source just because it’s telling you what you want to believe. You have to put as much doubt into the things you want to hear as you do into the things you don’t want to hear. You have to accept that sometimes what you want to hear may be false and what you don’t want to hear may be true. To get back to the OP, there were a lot of polls about what people were thinking before the election and they were telling people different things. Some polls were saying Romney was a huge favorite and he was sure to win the election. But there were other polls that were saying Obama was the favorite and he was sure to win. Obviously, all of these polls couldn’t be right. But you can’t just say _“I want Romney to win. So all the polls that tell me Romney’s going to win are true and all the polls that tell me Obama will win are lies.”_ ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/62 "2012-11-08T20:23:29Z")
Forbes wrote the 5 reasons why Romney lost: I. The Napoleon Factor Translation: Obama was luckier II. Obama Dominated the Ground Game Translation: Dems did a much better job of registering new voters and getting them to vote III. Romney Allowed the Other Side to Define Him & GOP Agenda Translation: it was because of Dem spin that -Women would suffer -jackbooted response to illegal immigration was bad -the auto industry would have been bailed out by the market if Dems hadn’t interfered and the auto industry would be stronger today -the economic meltdown got pinned on Bush IV. Romney Failed Because His Campaign Failed to Deliver Positive Substance Translation: -I’m not the President and his failed policies -we would be much better off without the auto bailout - couldn’t talk about ObamaCare because of what he had done as Governor in Massachusetts. V. GOP Convention Missed Opportunity Translation: we didn’t get the message out even though it was a giant infomercial that we controlled. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/63 "2012-11-08T21:09:20Z")
> [@Dob](#): > > I never understood Romneys’ (and other repubs) chant about “Government doesn’t create jobs!!!” But then then Romney went around the country and shouted “I will create 12 million jobs!!” > > Sooo… you blame Obama for not creating jobs even tho you say the government doesn’t create jobs? Then you run on a platform of “I will create 12 million jobs!”? > > The messaging never made any sense to me, and I suspect to quite a few others as well. Thank you! YES! This! (Also, when the price of gasoline went up, it was Obama’s fault, but when the price of gasoline went down, it wasn’t to his credit.) We’re dealing with a political philosophy that is immune to critical examination of facts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/64 "2012-11-08T21:12:36Z")
Here is [Red State’s 30 Reasons Republicans Lost The Election](http://www.redstate.com/mikehammond/2012/11/07/30-reasons-republicans-lost-the-election/). Some of them are ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/65 "2012-11-08T21:22:17Z")
I think someone could have predicted this months ago: Coulter: “If you don’t run Chris Christie, Romney will be the nominee and we’ll lose.” ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/66 "2012-11-08T23:16:27Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Here is [Red State’s 30 Reasons Republicans Lost The Election](http://www.redstate.com/mikehammond/2012/11/07/30-reasons-republicans-lost-the-election/). > > Some of them are ridiculous. What a trip. 1, 2. Romney wasn’t conservative enough. 3. The House GOP should have forced a government shutdown in October. 4, 5, 6. The House GOP were too conciliatory about Obamacare. 7. Romneycare (N.B. this is actually a good reason why Romney lost). 8. The House GOP is not pro-gun enough. 9. Republican rhetoric should not have been to defend the upper class. 10. It should have been to call Obama a socialist. 11, 12, 13. That got-damn librul media! 14. Not enough UN abortion conspiracy theories, and, we said too much about rape. 15. Romney not pro-life enough. 16, 17. GOP not anti-women enough. 18, 19. Karl Rove screwed up. I have to disagree somewhat - imagine the landslide if they hadn’t been able to fool some of the moderates. 20. Romney narrative not likeable enough. No disagreement here. 21, 22. House GOP not conservative enough. 23. Not enough conspiracies about Fast and Furious. 24. GOP too friendly to Obamacare. 25. “The Slimy, Feckless John Roberts.” Oh my. Guy also questions George Will’s conservative chops with some scare quotes. 26, 27. Incoherent Obamacare rambling. 28. Republican base not active enough. 29. Fox tried to prop up Benghazi-gate for too long. Finally a little warm by the end of the list. 30 is quoteworthy: > [@this is really what he wrote](#): > > By conceding, falsely, that the arrogant jerk Obama was “a nice guy,” simply because that’s what the biased polling was saying, the Republicans may have all-but-conceded the election. By presenting Obama as the [expletive deleted] that he was, at least the GOP could have moved the numbers –- in the same way that Democrats moved numbers through their personal attacks on Romney. It’s good in one way that Democrats lose a lot of elections. I feel like I’m going to gain five pounds from these delicious wingnut tears. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/67 "2012-11-09T02:40:25Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > **Saint Cad** , the discussion about conservative facts being at odds with reality is in another thread. But everything you wrote is a perfect example. Thanks! What facts were incorrect? That Congress was warned on 13 April 2005 by Treasury Secretary Snow that > [@](#): > > Events that have transpired since I testified before this Committee in 2003 reinforce concerns over the systemic risks posed by the GSEs and further highlight the need for real GSE reform to ensure that our housing finance system remains a strong and vibrant source of funding for expanding homeownership opportunities in America… Half-measures will only exacerbate the risks to our financial system To which Frank replied > [@](#): > > Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are not in a crisis. We see entities that are fundamentally sound financially. That Bush proposed changes to Fannie and Freddy on 9 August 2007 by stating > [@](#): > > These institutions provide liquidity in the mortgage market that benefits millions of homeowners, and it is vital they operate safely and operate soundly. So I’ve called on Congress to pass legislation that strengthens independent regulation of the GSEs – and ensures they focus on their important housing mission. on 6 December 2007? What about Bush’s 3 May 2008 radio address where he said > [@](#): > > Americans are concerned about making their mortgage payments and keeping their homes. Yet Congress has failed to pass legislation I have repeatedly requested to modernize the Federal Housing Administration that will help more families stay in their homes, reform Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to ensure they focus on their housing mission, and allow State housing agencies to issue tax-free bonds to refinance sub-prime loans. What was Frank’s response to regulation talk? > [@](#): > > the more pressure we see there the less we see in terms of affordable housing. Or are you saying I’m wrong [that Born warned about the unregulated derivatives markets and as a result Congress passed a law preventing her from regulating it?](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/interviews/born.html) ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/68 "2012-11-09T03:30:35Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > You are right about one thing, though. This election was the GOP’s to lose; polls said “generic Republican” would win. … GOP was left with the weakest serious candidate for the Presidency since Dukakis. Wait, they nominated a guy with no personality and no fixed positions. How much closer to ‘generic’ could the GOP get? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/69 "2012-11-09T05:38:53Z")
My best friend lives in California, and he’s definitely Republican. He believes the economy is the #1 issue. He voted Obama. I actually called him today to ask him about taht for this thread. He talked at great length about it, and my post here will do it little justice; he is not thrilled with Obama’s economic performance and is kind of hoping against his own expectations 2013-2016 will be better. But he just couldn’t bring himself to vote for a socially backwards party. He works every day with gay people, black people, non-Christians. He himself is an atheist. He was frustrated, and it came through; he could not understand why the Republicans hated gay people so much, or were doing so much to prevent black people from voting. It clearly bothered him; he feels unrepresented, but in the end had to vote for the man with whom he may disagree on details, but agree on MORALS. One of his last comments was said in a rather poignant manner: “The Republicans talk so much about freedom. They don’t really believe in it, though.” There you go, OMGABC. This is the guy whose vote you lost. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/70 "2012-11-09T06:36:50Z")
I do consider economic issues when I vote. But that doesn’t prevent me from voting for Democrats. From what I can see, for the last thirty years the Democrats have been the more fiscally responsible party in practice while the Republicans are arguably the more fiscally responsible party in theory. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/71 "2012-11-09T06:43:26Z")
One irony I thought of was the claim some conservatives are making that Sandy cost Romney the election. The ironic part was that if Gore had won in 2000, he probably would have pushed for some climate-related legislation and Sandy might not have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/72 "2012-11-09T07:03:50Z")
Romney said he had some good ideas for economic recovery, his plan was supposed to get specific after the election…so, it’s over and we could always use good ideas. Lets hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/73 "2012-11-09T08:11:35Z")
1. OMG: You really need to improve your game. Here’s a tip: if you start a new thread, _try to substantiate your claims with links_. It helps the reader. And it might cause you to tweak your post appropriately. Consider [google news](https://news.google.com/) as well as [DuckDuckGo](http://duckduckgo.com/). If you don’t know vB coding, learn it. 2. > [@](#): > > I’m actually trying to wrap my head around it, but I can’t. Apparently, the economy and economic well being is now an abstract construct with no tangible meaning to the majority of the electorate. I say this both based on observation and personal experience. If that is true, then what does this say about the future of the U.S.? Get off your high horse. If you are relying on conservative information sources, you are less well informed than the typical American, because they regularly impart misinformation. And falsehoods are worse than lack of knowledge, right? It is far worse to think you know and not, than to have a solid grasp of the limits of your knowledge. 1. To answer your question, research has shown that voters mostly care about the economic growth _during the election year_, and less about the first 3 years of the Presidential term. [Details at this website](http://fairmodel.econ.yale.edu/vote2012/index2.htm). The latest estimates of the economy (subject to revision) were that an incumbent in Obama’s shoes should have gotten 49% of the popular vote, given the state of the US economy. Obama secured 51.3%: he beat the average by 2.3 points. That’s pretty good actually, but not spectacular: Bush Sr. fared better against Dukakkis for example. If we had a recession this year, Obama would have been toast. But we didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/74 "2012-11-09T09:01:12Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > If we had a recession this year, Obama would have been toast. But we didn’t. I was saying all along that Republicans were overestimating the effects of a bad economy on Obama’s re-election. (They were also over-estimating how badly the economy was doing but that’s a different issue.) A bad economy is a lot worse against a Republican incumbent than a Democratic incumbent. On the one hand, some people blame the incumbent President, right or wrong, for economic problems. But on the other hand, when people are experiencing economic difficulties they want government help and the Democrats are perceived as the party that provides more government help. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/75 "2012-11-09T15:14:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > My best friend lives in California, and he’s definitely Republican. He believes the economy is the #1 issue. He voted Obama. > > I actually called him today to ask him about taht for this thread. He talked at great length about it, and my post here will do it little justice; he is not thrilled with Obama’s economic performance and is kind of hoping against his own expectations 2013-2016 will be better. > > But he just couldn’t bring himself to vote for a socially backwards party. He works every day with gay people, black people, non-Christians. He himself is an atheist. He was frustrated, and it came through; he could not understand why the Republicans hated gay people so much, or were doing so much to prevent black people from voting. It clearly bothered him; he feels unrepresented, but in the end had to vote for the man with whom he may disagree on details, but agree on MORALS. One of his last comments was said in a rather poignant manner: > > “The Republicans talk so much about freedom. They don’t really believe in it, though.” > > There you go, OMGABC. This is the guy whose vote you lost. I don’t see that many actual fiscal liberals out there, but I do see lots of people for whom the GOP has poisoned their reputation. I’ve had several friends who voted for McCain in 2008 tell me that they changed over to Obama, Gary Johnson, or a blank vote because the party has gotten so excessively dogmatic. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/76 "2012-11-09T15:32:47Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Wait, they nominated a guy with no personality and no fixed positions. How much closer to ‘generic’ could the GOP get? When someone votes for “generic Republican” in a poll, I think they want to be able to say [“Who was that masked man, anyway?”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Ranger), or perhaps be saved by Saint Paul: [QUOTE=I Corinthians 9:22] To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. [/QUOTE] Instead their candidate, definitely not Mr. Charisma, reminded them neither of St. Paul nor the Lone Ranger. They ended up just wanting him to put his mask back on and ride away. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/77 "2012-11-09T15:46:35Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Romney said he had some good ideas for economic recovery, his plan was supposed to get specific after the election…so, it’s over and we could always use good ideas. > > Lets hear it. I’m still waiting to hear McCain’s plan to bet Bin Laden. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/78 "2012-11-09T15:47:17Z")
I’ve got Al Jazeera on my smartphone. This morning, I read [Five Reasons Why Romney Lost…](http://blogs.aljazeera.com/blog/americas/five-reasons-why-romney-lost) > [@](#): > > Inconsistency… > > Mendacity… > > Lost Women… > > Secret Video… > > Poor Candidate… > > Some Republicans I spoke to at the Romney event in Boston on Tuesday night tried to blame Hurricane Sandy for the loss. They insisted it blunted the Romney momentum and had the election been delayed a week, they would win. Unfortunately that ignores the ugly truth that the Republican party failed to greatly expand its support into key demographics and ultimately, their candidate wasn’t good enough. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/79 "2012-11-09T15:49:17Z")
I accidentally happened to read Ann Coulter’s column in the newspaper this morning. Her point, which I think may actually have some truth to it, was that the biggest reason Romney lost is that it’s hard to beat an incumbent. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236/80 "2012-11-09T16:00:57Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I accidentally happened to read Ann Coulter’s column in the newspaper this morning. Her point, which I think may actually have some truth to it, was that the biggest reason Romney lost is that it’s hard to beat an incumbent. Especially if your candidate is a total douchbag with no moral compass or productive plan. It’s a perfect storm. The hard truth for the republicans is that they were right, Obama could have been beat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-i-still-dont-understand-obama-vs-romney-on-the-economy/640236.md?page=5)