Something no one ever mentions when discussing jobs

[XT]

[QUOTE=NiceGuyJack]
So you are saying American economy is based on the brief monopoly they enjoyed after the war.
[/QUOTE]

The US had a large and vibrant economy and industry BEFORE the war, and it went into hyperdrive during the war. And it was one of the few in the world that wasn’t practically wiped out, or that wasn’t being crushed by the war effort and the fight for survival. After the war we enjoyed a near monopoly on manufactured goods and services well into the 60’s, and even after that we were still dominant as other nations rebuilt their infrastructure and markets. I think you are underestimating the effects of WWII on just about every other industrialized nation on earth in the war and post-war period.

I have to call bullshit on that.

Fair enough…what are your cites demonstrating whatever you are attempting to demonstrate here? What do you base your call of bullshit on?

Canada did not have a destroyed industry, neither did Sweden or Switzerland, but they all maintained their economies after the competition came back.

Neither Canada, Sweden nor Switzerland had large scale industries before or during the war…not on the same scale as the US, Britain, France, Germany, Japan etc. Nor did they have the large scale markets. Nor had they ramped up their economy to fight a global war and manufacture all the goods needed to support a large scale involvement. IIRC, Canada, for all it’s valiant part, didn’t field a huge army, navy or air force during the war, nor did they have to supply huge quantities of war material. Neither did Sweden nor Switzerland.

The US could have done the same, but the greed of the CEO’s ensures that this won’t happen. None of the European CEO’s make as much as American CEO’s and the European CEO’s pay a lot more tax and still remain rich. You don’t need that many millions to ensure a good life. American CEO’s are not satisfied with millions, apparently they need billions.

Yet the US GDP is nearly equal to all of the EU COMBINED. You can’t really do a good apples to apples comparison between US CEO’s and European CEO’s since there are all sorts of other factors that impact the price, including non-monetary ways of compensation, taxes and competition for the perceived best talent for a given position.

It’s simplistic to the extreme to blame American companies problems on CEO salaries, or to think that if you forced US companies to go by European (or Japanese) standards of compensation that this would magically do whatever it is you think that they are doing right and we aren’t. Sports stars in other countries aren’t compensated as much as American professional athletes by and large…what does that tell you about the relative merits of athletes? Anything meaningful?

-XT

[treis]

@NiceGuyJack

That is funny. The Euro is currently at an all time high compared the US dollar.
The Chinese are pegging their currency, but the Euro is not. What’s happening in Greece and Italy et. al. may weaken the Euro, but that alone is what determines the value. It is not pegged like the Chinese Yuan as you suggest. It is free floating and as I’ve already mentioned it is at an all time high compared to US$.

So is the Japanese Yen, the Australian, New Zealand & Singapore dollar as well as Indian Rupees by the way.

Is there a point to this? Because nothing you said addresses anything I said.

[NiceGuyJack]

@xtisme

The US had a large and vibrant economy and industry BEFORE the war, and it went into hyperdrive during the war. And it was one of the few in the world that wasn’t practically wiped out, or that wasn’t being crushed by the war effort and the fight for survival. After the war we enjoyed a near monopoly on manufactured goods and services well into the 60’s, and even after that we were still dominant as other nations rebuilt their infrastructure and markets. I think you are underestimating the effects of WWII on just about every other industrialized nation on earth in the war and post-war period.

No mention of the Great Depression I see. The US was in economical chaos prior to WW2, and WW2 brought them out of it. The Great Depression was, arguably, caused by trade wars. But please don’t tell me the US economy and industry was healthy before the war when it obviously was not.
As for the monopoly, it started in 1939 when the British committed to the war. America supplied the Brits with weapons and food. But then so did the Canadians.

@xtisme

Neither Canada, Sweden nor Switzerland had large scale industries before or during the war…not on the same scale as the US, Britain, France, Germany, Japan etc. Nor did they have the large scale markets. Nor had they ramped up their economy to fight a global war and manufacture all the goods needed to support a large scale involvement. IIRC, Canada, for all it’s valiant part, didn’t field a huge army, navy or air force during the war, nor did they have to supply huge quantities of war material. Neither did Sweden nor Switzerland.

You are right, none of those industries would even compare to the US. But they were export oriented because they were so small economically. Canada were at war when the Brits were. Sweden and Switzerland were both neutral so they never fought.
So, all three countries have a smaller population than the US combined. But there is no poverty or starvation in any of those countries today.

@xtisme

Yet the US GDP is nearly equal to all of the EU COMBINED. You can’t really do a good apples to apples comparison between US CEO’s and European CEO’s since there are all sorts of other factors that impact the price, including non-monetary ways of compensation, taxes and competition for the perceived best talent for a given position.

Yes GDP of the US is equal to EU. But perhaps you should be looking as GDP per capita.

@xtisme

It’s simplistic to the extreme to blame American companies problems on CEO salaries, or to think that if you forced US companies to go by European (or Japanese) standards of compensation that this would magically do whatever it is you think that they are doing right and we aren’t. Sports stars in other countries aren’t compensated as much as American professional athletes by and large…what does that tell you about the relative merits of athletes? Anything meaningful?

Hate to tell you this, but the best-paid athletes in the world are football stars. That’s soccer players in American English. Europe mainly, but also South America,

[NiceGuyJack]

@treis

Is there a point to this? Because nothing you said addresses anything I said.

Only that you assumed that the Euro was pegged to the US dollar which it is not.
A free floating currency can not teach as you suggested.
Point is you are wrong.

[Wesley_Clark]

@rogerbox

It is so obvious to me that it is getting harder and harder for anyone but the wealthy to do well in this country. A college degree or trade certificate is pretty much the bare minimum to have a decent lifestyle in this country.

Pretty much, but even that just increases your odds, doesn’t actually get you through the door. A coworker of mine has a B.S. degree and graduated in 2008 but still has to work part time as a waitress to make ends meet. There are legions of trained, educated people who are unemployed or underemployed.

Life is getting harder for everyone but the wealthy. I have no idea what to do about it, or what will happen. But it isn’t sustainable because people can’t endlessly put up with stagnant wages, declining benefits and growing expenses. The debt we used to use to make ends meet doesn’t exist and exploded recently.

No idea.

[RickJay]

@rogerbox

I won’t lie, I had to look up what a steno pool was. Are you saying that society has no more need for steel products?

Of course, and many steel products are still made in the United States. But why shouldn’t some be purchased from other countries?

[mozchron]

@rogerbox

…Personally, I feel that I am almost 26 and decently intelligent, but I am not able to find a decent job because I am from a rather poor and/or disfunctional family. I haven’t been able to go to school because my mother is a lawyer who has never given me a dollar for higher education, but because her income was high, even though I lived on my own and paid rent, I was considered her dependent for federal loans and aid money until I believe something like last year. I actually WORK at a state college, but as a custodian…

This part of your OP jumped out at me. Why can’t you get a decent education? THe same thing happened to me - parents made too much money but didn;t give me any money for college.

I know this is going to sound a little “uphill, both ways”, but I worked full time, graveyard-shift to pay for college. I had every other Sunday off (meaning I usually worked 13 days in a row). Worked from 1am-9am, had class from 10am-4pm. Slept from 7pm-12:30am.

I also went to Community college for my lower division credits. With work, it took me 3 and a half years to finish 2 years worth of classes, but whatever. I then transferred to a state school to finish my bachelors. I had enough saved from working to pay my first year, and earned a scholarship to pay for the rest.

Then I got my PhD.

I not only paid my way through school, but I graduated with no debt.

Go and do likewise. Don’t blame your non-education on “outsourcing”.

[rogerbox]

It seems you’re making a lot of assumptions about my beliefs which I think you shouldn’t with your leading questions. Let me try to clarify…and I consider them BELIEFS of course, since I am not an economist. But it seems like a fact that there is a direct corellation between the times we have had high corporate taxes and prosperity, and bush era tax cuts and corporate welfare and a trashed economy…unless you are arguing that subsidies for the biggest most profitable company in all of mankind at the American taxpayer’s expense is a good idea.

@xtisme

What metric should we use? What would be a good metric to show how healthy the US (presumably economy) is?

I think that after the first few million how much the ultra rich make is irrellevent. The lifestyle of the highest percentage of the population possible should be as high as possible. So my system would consider the multimillionaires “complete” and focus on the vast majority of Americans who are not multimillionaires and measure their lifestyle. As long as there are people living in third world conditions and middle class people cannot pay their bills or send their children to college or expect the insurance companies to actually PAY OUT when they become sick (Or that their kids are even insurable if they have a pre-existing condition), then I would say no, the US is not healthy just because our extremely rich are by themselves richer than the majority of the rest of the planet combined. The average American could be doing a lot better, if we chose to make the people at the top pay their fair share, and FIGHT FOR OUR WORKERS instead of just LETTING, or even ENCOURAGING jobs to get outsourced to save a few percentage points.

Which is the same argument used by protectionists and Luddite types throughout history. Why is it different now? Why is it important to protect the middle class and force companies to employ people if it makes no business sense to do so?

Because with a few changes of policy it WOULD make sense to do so, and we as the American people control our destiny, so if you’re not in the ultra-wealthy class, it makes sense for you and your children to do so?

How would it work if you DID force companies to hire a bunch of people they don’t need to do jobs that could be done better overseas or by automation?

I didn’t say anything about forcing people to hire a bunch of people they don’t need, I’m saying we should stop subsidising outsourcing. There was a person who called in to a radio show recently (so I can’t give a cite, sorry) about General Electric saying that if the town would give them $4 million in subsidies over a 4 year period that their plant could stay in that town. After the four years were up, GE closed the plant down and built a brand new, multimillion dollar plant…in Mexico. I don’t understand your mentality of not WANTING to fight the race to the bottom.

How would those people doing those useless jobs feel in the long run about that? Would that make them proud of the jobs they were doing, would it make them determined to do a good job knowing that their jobs and income were protected? How has that worked out historically?

I’m pretty sure they would like their protected job just fine compared to working McDonald’s during the week and Walmart during the weekend. Which is where we are headed. You’re talking to someone who mops floors because I’ve spent years looking for something better and can’t leverage any connections to find something better, so don’t talk to me about pride.

What do you suppose billionaires do with their wealth? Do they stuff it in mattresses or blow it all on hookers and jet air planes? What does produce jobs and wealth? You say it’s not Bush era tax cuts (and I don’t necessarily disagree with that), but then what would produce both? What do you think needs to be done to make companies hire Americans instead of offshoring and outsourcing, or what would spur companies to expand or even spur people to build new companies or products? What’s the mechanism to do all that stuff? How do you propose to ‘solve’ this ‘problem’?

-XT

I would say that the money we spend on bombs and Bush’s pet wars could be spent on education and job training programs, and if the tax loopholes and all that money in the Cayman islands was actually going to the gov’t like it rightfully should, we would have no deficit and could give tax incentives to companies that hire workers at a decent wage. Heck, we could probably even have the capacity to heavy-lift objects into space again.

But call me crazy, it IS really important for the top percent of a percent to have that extra income so that they can hire a few poolboys.

[Evil_Captor]

@emacknight

Steel is actually a really good example. The US continues to have steel tariffs in place to “protect” domestic steel workers.

But the result is three fold:

1. steel is more expensive and that hurts everyone including steel workers
2. in encourages substitutions towards other materials which hurts steel workers
3. in encourages rival trade policies that again hurt everyone including steel workers

The economic theory is to let production go to where it can be done cheapest. Then allow Americans to produce the end products which they are better at doing. And what you’ll see in the middle is a market for specialized steel products that Americans are better at making and require hire skilled workers that America is better and producing.

Will there also be pie in the sky when I die?

[Evil_Captor]

@code_grey

no one gives a damn about those issues that you seem concerned about. No one gives a damn if you get a “living wage” job. Further, no one gives a damn if you get any job at all that would let you at least learn useful job skills. In fact, no one gives a damn about you and people like you full stop.

Everybody that matter don’t mind. They all have their own agendas which don’t include either of the above items that would have been an issue of note in a working social contract type of society. Everybody that do mind, don’t matter.

Repeat the above principles out loud until you fully appreciate them. Then stop expecting any social contract type of goodness out of the world around you and try to figure out how to live in it as best as you can.

/me takes note. “Kill and eat the rich,” he scribbled.

[rogerbox]

@mozchron

I know this is going to sound a little “uphill, both ways”, but I worked full time, graveyard-shift to pay for college. I had every other Sunday off (meaning I usually worked 13 days in a row). Worked from 1am-9am, had class from 10am-4pm. Slept from 7pm-12:30am.

How old are you? Because if you have a PHD, school probably costs a HELL of a lot more now than it does when you did this. Good for you though, that’s a hell of a schedule. Were you paying rent and living on your own doing this? Very impressive. Also, were you kicked out of the house with no notice at 18 with only a high school Diploma to get some useless crap job where you could barely pay rent and eat? That makes a big difference too. Everyone’s situation is different.

Go and do likewise. Don’t blame your non-education on “outsourcing”.

I was rambling a bit in my OP, but the direct cause of me not being educated yet is that my useless parents and poor family have not contributed a dime to my education. I already said that now that I am considered an independent by the gov’t because of my age, I am now able to get enough loans and grants to study. In fact, I will be studying part time next semester at a different branch of the CC I work at.

[treis]

@NiceGuyJack

Only that you assumed that the Euro was pegged to the US dollar which it is not.
A free floating currency can not teach as you suggested.
Point is you are wrong.

I never assumed, said, or even implied that the Euro was pegged to the US dollar.

I don’t know what “can not teach” means, but the relationship of Germany with the Euro is well known and acts exactly as I said.

[rogerbox]

@code_grey

no one gives a damn about those issues that you seem concerned about. No one gives a damn if you get a “living wage” job. Further, no one gives a damn if you get any job at all that would let you at least learn useful job skills. In fact, no one gives a damn about you and people like you full stop.

Everybody that matter don’t mind. They all have their own agendas which don’t include either of the above items that would have been an issue of note in a working social contract type of society. Everybody that do mind, don’t matter.

Repeat the above principles out loud until you fully appreciate them. Then stop expecting any social contract type of goodness out of the world around you and try to figure out how to live in it as best as you can.

Thanks I needed that. :D:D

[Evil_Captor]

@mozchron

This part of your OP jumped out at me. Why can’t you get a decent education? THe same thing happened to me - parents made too much money but didn;t give me any money for college.

I know this is going to sound a little “uphill, both ways”, but I worked full time, graveyard-shift to pay for college. I had every other Sunday off (meaning I usually worked 13 days in a row). Worked from 1am-9am, had class from 10am-4pm. Slept from 7pm-12:30am.

I also went to Community college for my lower division credits. With work, it took me 3 and a half years to finish 2 years worth of classes, but whatever. I then transferred to a state school to finish my bachelors. I had enough saved from working to pay my first year, and earned a scholarship to pay for the rest.

Then I got my PhD.

I not only paid my way through school, but I graduated with no debt.

Go and do likewise. Don’t blame your non-education on “outsourcing”.

Gives mozchron the Internet Horatio Alger “just so” story award. “That was stirring!” he sobbed.

[mozchron]

@rogerbox

Were you paying rent and living on your own doing this?

Yes. And I’m 36.

Also, were you kicked out of the house with no notice at 18 with only a high school Diploma to get some useless crap job where you could barely pay rent and eat? That makes a big difference too. Everyone’s situation is different.

I moved out on my own at 17.

And I agree with you about crap jobs. I knew I couldn’t follow through on my plan by working at Micky D’s. That’s why I worked graveyard - there are better-paying jobs available at that time because no one wants to work those hours.

[rogerbox]

I’ve really derailed my own thread, I really wanted to focus on the problem with efficiency, which is it ignores the NUMBERS of good quality jobs that the vast majority of working class and poor NEED, in favor of sheer in/out in dollars and cents across the US, 95% of which is going directly to the wealthy and has very little to do with the vast majority of Americans who are not (unless you believe in trickle down economics). I consider 100 people making 40,000 a year (a good wage IMO) a better net benefit for “America” than 5million materializing into warren Buffet’s lap. His transfer of wealth from his poolboys and an extra Ferrari is less efficient than 100 people working a good 40k a year job buying groceries and houses instead of working themselves to death piecing together multiple McJobs. Also, the economy at large from what I understand is more driven by consumer spending, which is driven more by middle and lower class people than the wealthy. Correct me if any of my facts are wrong.

mozchron, you do realize that it doesn’t have to BE that way? You get (with some qualifiers) free university in Germany. I don’t think there is much value in someone smart enough to get a PHD working a mcjob to pay for part time college. Conservatives are always gung ho about efficiency, but that is the exact opposite of efficient, the smart people should be being encouraged and helped to get their education to start working in demanding fields to help America ASAP, and at the same time the less smart and/or people who prefer blue collar type jobs should be able to do that and raise their families. I don’t see why this opinion is radical in the so-called richest country in the world that is WHILE WE SPEAK giving free money to the richest company in all of human history: Exxon-Mobil.

[mozchron]

@rogerbox

I’ve really derailed my own thread

I think I derailed it. Sorry about that, I didn’t mean to.

[XT]

[QUOTE=NiceGuyJack]
No mention of the Great Depression I see. The US was in economical chaos prior to WW2, and WW2 brought them out of it. The Great Depression was, arguably, caused by trade wars. But please don’t tell me the US economy and industry was healthy before the war when it obviously was not.
[/QUOTE]

We were still an economic and manufacturing superpower even during the Great Depression (which I didn’t mention because I fail to see the relevance, considering that the GD wasn’t just an American phenomena, but a world wide event impacting every major industrial nation on earth).

As for how healthy or not healthy the US economy and industry was, I AM going to tell you that it was quite robust prior to the war, relative to every other industrial nation on earth at that time, because that’s simply the truth, regardless of what your apparent beliefs are.

You are right, none of those industries would even compare to the US. But they were export oriented because they were so small economically. Canada were at war when the Brits were. Sweden and Switzerland were both neutral so they never fought.
So, all three countries have a smaller population than the US combined. But there is no poverty or starvation in any of those countries today.

Do you believe that Canada and the US supplied war material and manufactured goods on the same scale to the UK during WWII?? Seriously? If not then, again, I fail to see the point of this. The US supplied more war material and manufactured goods to EVERY ally during WWII than all the rest combined. Even if you want to believe that magically WWII fixed the US manufacturing and industrial capacity simply by happening, that alone put us in a class by ourselves manufacturing and industrially. Our industrial capacity went into overdrive during and immediately after the war and after the war we rebuilt many of the countries (including former enemies) devastated by the war. We didn’t do it because we are or were nice guys…we did it because it gave us a lock on producing goods and services to those countries and market penetration of those countries for said goods and services.

Yes GDP of the US is equal to EU. But perhaps you should be looking as GDP per capita.

Fine by me. According to this, the GDP in the EU as a whole per capita is US $32,615 (nominal). I couldn’t find a Wiki cite for it that was easy to find, but according to this the US per capita is $45,989. If you want to talk PPP the US still comes out ahead of the EU as a whole.

Now, if you want to talk individual countries in the EU then it’s a different ball game. Of course, the same could be said about individual states in the US as well, with some dragging down the average.

Hate to tell you this, but the best-paid athletes in the world are football stars. That’s soccer players in American English. Europe mainly, but also South America,

Are you saying that a few soccer players are the highest paid athletes in the world, or that on average professional soccer players are the highest paid athletes as a class in the world? Either way do you have a cite? I thought golfers were the highest paid, but admittedly I don’t follow sports, whether it be US sports or European sports…at least not professional sports.

-XT

[Evil_Captor]

It was doomed to be derailed, our libertarian/conservative posters always show up and tell just-so stories and whatnot whenever the idea that funneling money to the rich as fast as possible is a bad idea is floated.

Possible ways the government could protect American jobs:

1. Offer tax incentives to companies that do not export American jobs
2. Make it illegal to offer tax incentives at the state, federal or local level to companies or their subsidiaries, that export American jobs. No tax breaks, loopholes, or anything of that nature – if you want to just enrich your board of directors and shareholders, you can pay the full price for everything here in the USA.
3. Offer tax incentives to companies and individuals that create new firms that hire American workers.

Notice no one is being forced to do anything. Companies can still export work if they want to, they just don’t get any breaks from the government if they do so. Seems eminently fair and reasonable.

[Le_Jacquelope]

@rogerbox

But I rarely see people compare the NUMBER of these jobs. There is always going to be less job slots for “robotics engineer” than “blue collar steel mill worker”.

I have brought this up numerous times. No one has been able to answer the question of how many robot engineer jobs will we have, compared to factory line worker jobs we’re giving up today.

They won’t answer because absolutely no one can hope to substantiate even a 1:2 ratio of robot engineer jobs to factory worker jobs. It’s simply impossible.

In the race to maximize efficiency, the pro-outsourcing camp always points to NET benefit and efficiency as what’s best for America

Their main argument is that it results in higher growth.

What they don’t want you to point out is that the flaws in the “higher growth” argument is that the benefits of growth doesn’t go to the working class. Their wages have stagnated while the cost of living has gone up. If you point this out it will consistently get ignored, or they’ll say “but there’s growth! is there not growth! there’s growth!!!”

the logical conclusion is that if there were 5 people in America with salaries higher than whatever the GDP would be for that year and the rest of us were homeless tunneldwelling morlocks, that it would be for the best.

Pretty much.

My grandfather had no education, but he supported a full family with a car and a home in a steel mill for 30 years…these kinds of options are just not open, even getting a unionized job at the loading docks or the railroads require knowing the right people.

The Pro-Offshoring view on this?
“He’s better off unemployed rather than working an obsolete job. By obsolete I mean a job that others are doing elsewhere.”
(Yes, it’s a weird definition of “obsolete” but you just have to drink the purple kool-aid and accept it.)

@spark240

There’s a lot of people in my part of the country who remember their textile mill jobs with great affection, now that they’re making three or four dollars per hour less and have no meaningful health care.

Don’t you realize that this is the benefit of comparative advantage? We let China and India do the manufacturing and textiles and our workers go on unemployment!

@treis

We can preserve jobs through tariffs, currency devaluation, and other subsidies, but this is no different than putting those millions of factory workers on welfare.

Yeah, how dare America put millions of factory workers on welfare.

Much better for them to be on unemployment or disability, or thrown out on the street.

Ain’t capitalism great! :rolleyes: