# Something to consider. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2000, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544 "2000-07-31T14:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jenkinsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cc9497/32.png) [@jenkinsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jenkinsfan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/21 "2000-07-31T16:00:33Z")
Mr. Wasteful, one of the 10 Commandments tells us not to lie so honesty is Biblical. I never claimed that everyone in the US was a Christian and I certainly don’t believe that. Yes, some people have suffered at America’s hand but I’m not going to justify it. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/22 "2000-07-31T16:08:35Z")
Learn some history: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which delcared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. " Thomas Jefferson, Jan. 1, 1802 “No religious Test shall ever be required as a qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States” (U. S. Constitution, 1787, Art. 6, Sec. 3). “The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion” (John Adams, 1797, Hunter Miller, ed., Treaties and other International Acts, 2:365). “The appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, [is] contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that ‘Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment’” (James Madison, February 27, 1811, Writings, 8:133). “The divorce between Church and State ought to be absolute. It ought to be so absolute that no Church property anywhere, in any state, or in the nation, should be exempt from equal taxation; for if you exempt the property of any church organization, to that extent you impose a tax upon the whole community” (James A. Garfield, 1874, Congressional Record, 2: 5384). “Leave the matter of religion to the family, the altar, the church, and the private school, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate” (Ulysses S. Grant, 1875, Leo Pfeffer, Church, State, and Freedom, 1967, p. 337). The Constitution of the United States does not contain the words “God,” “Jesus,” “Christ,” “Christianity,” or “Bible.” It makes exactly two references to religion–one prohibiting religious tests for officeholders, and one prohibiting the government from allowing an establishment of religion. “Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution” (James Madison, Papers, 8:301). “It is between fifty and sixty years since I read [the Book of Revelation], and I then considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams… I cannot so far respect [the extravagances of the composition] as to consider them as an allegorical narrative of events, past or subsequent. There is not coherence enough in them to countenance any suite of rational ideas… What has no meaning admits no xplanation… I do not consider them as revelations of the Supreme being, whom I would not so far blaspheme as to impute to Him a pretension of revelation, couched at the same time in terms which, He would know, were never to be understood by those to whom they were addressed.” --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander Smyth, 1825. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/23 "2000-07-31T16:23:49Z")
Oh, and as to the OP: > [@](#): > > All military branches of the United States government pay chaplains. As well as Rabbis, Buddhist monks, and Wiccan priests. What does that prove? > [@](#): > > A portrait of Moses with the Ten Commandments hangs above the Speaker’s chair in the United States Congress. The Congress is filled with portraits of ‘famous lawgivers’; whether one believes in Christianity or not has no bearing on whether one considers the Ten Commandments as “famous laws.” There’s also a picture of Hammurabi- but when’s the last time you heard of a felon having his eye gouged out by the state because he gouged out the eye of his victim? > [@](#): > > We have a mandated “National Day of Prayer.” (36 United States Code, Section 169[H]) We also have National Broccoli Week, which means the U.S. Government takes Broccoli seven times more serious than prayer. > [@](#): > > The birth of Christ, Christmas, is a national holiday. As is the birth of Christopher Columbus. Do we consider him a foundation of the state? > [@](#): > > John Hancock’s signature on the Constitution was signed 1787 “in the year of our Lord.” So basically, what you’re saying is, that because Christianity was the dominant religion of the American colonies and United States in the 18th and 19th Centuries, we should grant Christianity a stay from the entire ‘seperation of church and state’ thing, and that we should all honor Christianity because it’s the dominant religion. Women outnumber men in this country; do _you_ bleed from the crotch once a month because the majority of people do it? Would you like a government which forced you to bleed from the crotch once a month in ‘solidarity’ with the rest of the country, or because we live in a country where female is the most popular sex? ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/24 "2000-07-31T16:30:15Z")
\*\*jenkinsfan \*\*: > [@](#): > > Mr. Wasteful, one of the 10 Commandments tells us not to lie so honesty is Biblical. Hell, so do any number of extra-biblical sources. More than a few of which pre-date the bible. > [@](#): > > I never claimed that everyone in the US was a Christian and I certainly don’t believe that. And if I may take a moment to speak for those of us who aren’t, “A thousand thanks. No, really.” > [@](#): > > Yes, some people have suffered at America’s hand but I’m not going to justify it. Now, wait a minute. Are you saying that you **aren’t going** to attempt to justify it? Or simply that you **can’t**? Me? I’m inclined to think that it’s the latter. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/25 "2000-07-31T16:36:20Z")
]\*Originally posted by jenkinsfan \* > [@](#): > > Forget what the founding fathers said, wrote, etc. I think _you_ have forgotten what the founding fathers wrote. Following the excellent prior example of **pldennison** , I wish to portray the founding fathers in their own words. I may not be very good at constructing a beautiful phrase; however, I _am_ well-versed in research, and this is what the founding fathers actually said: From the pen of **James Madison** : > [@](#): > > “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” > > “Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.” Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Christianity, or religion in general. Lest you think he may have stood alone against the intermingling of church and state, try reading further. From our 2nd president, **John Adams** : > [@](#): > > “As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?” > > “God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world.” > > “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.” hmmmm… call me presumptous, but I’ll bet he wasn’t a big fan of a state-sponsered religion. Maybe you see things differently, perhaps by excluding reason from the process. **Thomas Jefferson** is well known for actually writing the phrase “separation of church and state” in a letter to the Danbury Babtist Association, but let’s focus on a few statements of which you are likely unaware: > [@](#): > > “Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.” > > “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.” > > “I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.” > > “And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” > > “I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.” > > “We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanatacism and fabrication .” There are many more quotes available to support my point, but this post is already longer than I intended. In short, I do not believe an objective review of the collective writings of our founding fathers will convince anyone of their desire for anything short of a wall of separation between church and state. Lacking your ability to accept things strictly on faith, I must rely on this type of information to make my judgements. But I leave you with one last quote, from another of the founding fathers **Benjamin Franklin:** > [@](#): > > “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/26 "2000-07-31T16:45:02Z")
Sad that Franklin said that since reason is a faith-based epistemology (axioms are accepted without proof, some terms are accepted without definition). Makes me wonder about the context of that one. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/27 "2000-07-31T16:45:58Z")
Now that the usual (and necessary) volley of quotes is over… It is hard to invoke the Founding Fathers’ opinion on this matter. I believe that if they were all around today, they would have strikingly different opinions on SOCAS. I do not deny the role of Christianity in our country’s history and heritage. However, a lot has changed over the years. For one thing, we have (mostly) decided that there shouldn’t be any second-class citizens–that belonging to a certain group or holding a certain belief makes one no less an American. The government, therefore, should serve all people equally. (In contrast, you should remember when that when they said, “All men are created equal,” they weren’t referring to slaves, and they arguably weren’t referring to women.) At the same time, after the Red Scare push that got IGWT put on the money and made the national motto and got “In Got We Trust” finally ended, the courts had to take this into consideration as it pertains to religion. The First Amendment pretty clearly (to me) says that US citizens have the right to belong to any religion they like, or to no religion. So when the wall of the school or the courthouse has a sign that says, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me,” or when the class says a Christian prayer before school, doesn’t that make second-class citizens of those whose beliefs differ? Therefore, it is best that the government stay neutral on the issue. Of course, Christians have that “if you aren’t for me, you’re against me” thing going on, thinking that it isn’t possible to be neutral on the issue of religion. Therein lies the tension. I think it is possible to acknowledge the role of Christianity in our culture and in our country’s past and at the same time understand the reasons for the separation of church and state. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/28 "2000-07-31T16:48:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jenkinsfan \* > **My purpose of this thread is show that God blessed this nation above all others because of our Christian establishment.** How is the U.S. blessed above all others? I mean, in what sense could someone point to the U.S. and say “look at that; without being a country founded on the bible, they’d never be so blessed”? ---
**Author:** ![jenkinsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cc9497/32.png) [@jenkinsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jenkinsfan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/29 "2000-07-31T17:31:14Z")
I will continue to post in this thread, but I have recently discovered a stray dog with puppies on my property and I’m dealing with this at the moment. Please continue posting your comments here. I look to forward to the debate I’m sure that will follow. God bless all. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/30 "2000-07-31T18:03:09Z")
Even if we were to assume that the founding fathers were all Christians, this does not mean that they were necessarily founding a Christian country. I could get a group of people together to start a bowling team. They all might be Christian. Does this mean that the bowling team is a Christian team? That, if one of them has to quit and they get their friend Felix Cohen to join, that he must convert in order to do so? All that said, I do NOT think it’s safe to even assume this since several of our founding fathers were deists, and I doubt they were keen thinking of this as a “Christian Nation.” Also, we were breaking from England’s tyranny and part of that was rebelling against all of the stringent rules that George would have had us keep. This includes a national church. In a nutshell, why would people who wanted to have religious freedom from the Church of England start a country with its own national church? * * * Yer pal, Satan _I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Three months, three weeks, one day, 16 hours, 3 minutes and 4 seconds. 4546 cigarettes not smoked, saving $568.34. Life saved: 2 weeks, 1 day, 18 hours, 50 minutes._ Visit [The Fabulous Forums of Fathom](http://fff.fathom.org/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?) ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/31 "2000-07-31T18:09:26Z")
**Lib** , the quote came from _Poor Richard’s Almanac_, well known for its simple proverbs. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/32 "2000-07-31T18:48:00Z")
Well, I was going to say: Jenkinsfan said: > [@](#): > > The nation was founded with Christian principles and the Bible was very instrumental in the founding father’s way of thinking, therefore, it can be said that we have a Biblical foundation. . . . This is how our society was started. One works hard and earns an honest living. This fits into Scripture. I was raised a Christian, and the Bible was very instrumental in my upbringing. In fact, my first name means “follower of Christ.” That is how my life was started. I work hard and earn an honest living. This fits into Scripture. Are you telling me that I am therefore a Christian? Funny, I was under the impression that I’m an Atheist. Also: > [@](#): > > In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. > Thomas Jefferson – to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814. But now that you tell us that you’re taking care of some puppies, I just don’t have the heart to say these things. Why, in fact, you must be right on this issue, because, well, you’re just so darn _nice_! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/33 "2000-07-31T19:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AerynSun \* > But now that you tell us that you’re taking care of some puppies, I just don’t have the heart to say these things. Why, in fact, you must be right on this issue, because, well, you’re just so darn _nice_! Well, of course he’s _nice_ to puppies! It’s the Christian thing to do! ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/34 "2000-07-31T20:25:40Z")
Satan wrote: > [@](#): > > Even if we were to assume that the founding fathers were all Christians, this does not mean that they were necessarily founding a Christian country. And at least one of the Founding Fathers was definitely **not** a Christian. Benjamin Franklin was a deist. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/35 "2000-07-31T21:10:37Z")
\*\*Satan \*\*: > [@](#): > > I could get a group of people together to start a bowling team. They all might be Christian. Does this mean that the bowling team is a Christian team? That, if one of them has to quit and they get their friend Felix Cohen to join, that he must convert in order to do so? No, I imagine that he would just have to buckle under and recognize that he was a member of a **Christian** bowling team, and that the hosannahs and Christian prayer before each game (Did I get that right? When you bowl is it called a “game”?) were simply the price that poor Felix would have to pay for being amongst the righteous. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/36 "2000-07-31T21:11:04Z")
tracer: Didja read the third paragraph in my post up there? 😃 * * * Yer pal, Satan _I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Three months, three weeks, one day, 19 hours, 10 minutes and 50 seconds. 4551 cigarettes not smoked, saving $568.99. Life saved: 2 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 15 minutes._ Visit [The Fabulous Forums of Fathom](http://fff.fathom.org/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?) ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/37 "2000-07-31T21:13:28Z")
GLWasteful: That would be sarcasm, right? * * * Yer pal, Satan _I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Three months, three weeks, one day, 19 hours, 13 minutes and 15 seconds. 4552 cigarettes not smoked, saving $569.00. Life saved: 2 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 20 minutes._ Visit [The Fabulous Forums of Fathom](http://fff.fathom.org/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?) ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/38 "2000-07-31T21:35:49Z")
Satan: Yeah, sorry about any misunderstanding. My sarcasm sending unit is on the fritz again. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/39 "2000-07-31T22:17:17Z")
No problem, GL. Just thought I knew where you stood on this one, and I was scared for a moment that you changed sides! :eek: So, if anything, it was _MY_ sarcasm _receiving_ unit which is acting buggy! 🙂 * * * Yer pal, Satan _I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Three months, three weeks, one day, 20 hours, 17 minutes and 0 seconds. 4553 cigarettes not smoked, saving $569.23. Life saved: 2 weeks, 1 day, 19 hours, 25 minutes._ Visit [The Fabulous Forums of Fathom](http://fff.fathom.org/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?) ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2000, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544/40 "2000-07-31T22:40:05Z")
may as well continue to hijack this accursed thing. **Satan** : > [@](#): > > . . .and I was scared for a moment that you changed sides! Hey now! Careful with them fightin’ words. We might have to fight. > [@](#): > > So, if anything, it was _MY_ sarcasm _receiving_ unit which is acting buggy! No, no, really. The fibulator is all shot to hell, and I can’t get the tech guys up here to look at it. Dunno why, but I rather like the idea of prostrating myself to apologize to Satan. Waste Flick Lives! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/something-to-consider/27544.md?page=3)