# Sometimes I overreact (PETA rant...Long) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 17, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947 "2007-08-17T15:29:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lobstermobster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobstermobster/32/10033_2.png) [@lobstermobster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobstermobster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/61 "2007-08-19T03:20:45Z")
I have no idea what that guy is gibbering about. I think everyone has backed themselves up pretty well in this thread. How is saying “i must have killed thousands of them” not the same thing as confessing to killing thousands of them ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/62 "2007-08-19T03:26:11Z")
I can’t imagine how you can read [PETA’s own web page](http://www.peta.org/Living/AT-Fall2005/nokill.asp) and still say that PETA doesn’t oppose no-kill shelters. What would they have to say? Is this not enough: > [@](#): > > ‘No-Kill’ or ‘No-Clue’? > [@](#): > > “No-kill” animal shelters should really be called “leave-the-killing-to-someone-else” shelters. > [@](#): > > If we are to achieve the goal we all share—an eventual end to the killing—we must face the fact that “no-kill” is not “no-kill” at all—it merely leaves the killing to someone else. What’s needed is a commitment to preventing the births of unwanted animals. > > Every dollar used to build a “no-kill” shelter may help a few animals, but it puts us further away from eliminating the overpopulation problem by siphoning money away from spay and neuter programs. > [@](#): > > The Dollars and Nonsense of “No-kill” Sheltering ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/63 "2007-08-19T05:04:21Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] > [@Boyo Jim](#): > > Better they be dead than caged, maybe even if the cage is a normal home in a suburban neighborhood. This is a totally inaccurate summary of PETA’s position. It’s not necessary to like PETA in order to understand where they’re coming from, and what irritates me is when PETA opponents make them out to be even worse than they already are. [/QUOTE] “Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation.” — Ingrid Newkirk, _Harper’s_, Aug 1988 “The bottom line is that people don’t have the right to manipulate or to breed dogs and cats… If people want toys, they should buy inanimate objects. If they want companionship, they should seek it with their own kind.” — Ingrid Newkirk, _Animals_, May/June 1993 “One day, we would like an end to pet shops and the breeding of animals. [Dogs] would pursue their natural lives in the wild … they would have full lives, not wasting at home for someone to come home in the evening and pet them and then sit there and watch TV.” — Ingrid Newkirk, _The Chicago Daily Herald_, Mar 1990 “In the end, I think it would be lovely if we stopped this whole notion of pets altogether.” — Ingrid Newkirk, _Newsday_, Feb 1988 “Let us allow the dog to disappear from our brick and concrete jungles- from our firesides, from the leather nooses and chains by which we enslave it. … The cat, like the dog, must disappear. … We should cut the domestic cat free from our dominance by neutering, neutering, and more neutering, until our pathetic version of the cat ceases to exist.” -John Bryant, Fettered Kingdoms: An Examination of a Changing Ethic, PETA 1982, p.15. “As John Bryant has written in his book Fettered Kingdoms, [pets] are like slaves, even if well-kept slaves.” -PETA’s Statement on Companion Animals “I am opposed to having children. Having a purebred human baby is like having a purebred dog; it is nothing but vanity, human vanity.” - Ingrid Newkirk, _New Yorker_ magazine, April 23, 2003 “We do not advocate ‘right to life’ for animals.” - Ingrid Newkirk, in correspondence to Nathan Winograd ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/64 "2007-08-19T05:14:50Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] “Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation.” — Ingrid Newkirk, _Harper’s_, Aug 1988 [/QUOTE] Lute, did you read what I was responding to? Yes, PETA thinks pet ownership is akin to slavery. Yes, that’s a silly position. No, it is not the same thing as “better they be dead than caged.” It’s not remotely the same thing. A billion more quotes pointing out that they don’t like pet ownership won’t change that. **Boyo** , again, if all you mean by “opposes no-kill shelters” is that they think no-kill shelters aren’t a full solution and that they don’t have a lot of respect for them, then we have no disagreement. If you’re suggesting that PETA thinks they’re doing harm in the world, then I believe you’ve not carefully read their position. They overstate the problems with no-kill shelters badly, it’s true (although there’s a kernel of truth to the criticism)–but to suggest they oppose no-kill shelters seems to lump those in with other things PETA opposes, like eating meat, wearing fur, and conducting medical research. **lobster** , did you confess to conducting animal research on this board? Only in the sense that you confessed to that did Newkirk confess to euthanizing animals. Again, maybe I misunderstand what you mean by “confess.” Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/65 "2007-08-19T05:27:22Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] … **Boyo** , again, if all you mean by “opposes no-kill shelters” is that they think no-kill shelters aren’t a full solution and that they don’t have a lot of respect for them, then we have no disagreement. If you’re suggesting that PETA thinks they’re doing harm in the world, then I believe you’ve not carefully read their position. …Daniel [/QUOTE] I suggest **you** read it more carefully. > [@](#): > > Every dollar used to build a “no-kill” shelter may help a few animals, but it puts us further away from eliminating the overpopulation problem by siphoning money away from spay and neuter programs. According to PETA, no-kill sheleters are harmful. Maybe not as harmful as meat eating, or important enough to boycott them, but indisputably something they don’t agree with, think is a waste of resources, and not only a waste but a drain of resources away from other sensible projects. That is opposition by any standard, except possibly yours. What does opposition mean in your world? ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/66 "2007-08-19T06:59:40Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Yes, PETA thinks pet ownership is akin to slavery. Yes, that’s a silly position. No, it is not the same thing as “better they be dead than caged.” It’s not remotely the same thing. A billion more quotes pointing out that they don’t like pet ownership won’t change that. [/QUOTE] Wasn’t PETA in support of the German animal rights group that wanted the Berlin Zoo to euthanize Knut the Polar Bear earlier this year? That seems like a pretty firm statement of ‘better dead than caged’. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/67 "2007-08-19T10:56:57Z")
Must learn patience ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/68 "2007-08-19T12:08:58Z")
[QUOTE=Diomedes] Wasn’t PETA in support of the German animal rights group that wanted the Berlin Zoo to euthanize Knut the Polar Bear earlier this year? That seems like a pretty firm statement of ‘better dead than caged’. [/QUOTE] Hadn’t heard about this… details? ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/69 "2007-08-19T13:08:37Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] “I am opposed to having children. Having a purebred human baby is like having a purebred dog; it is nothing but vanity, human vanity.” - Ingrid Newkirk, _New Yorker_ magazine, April 23, 2003 [/QUOTE] I’m kinda thinking it is too bad Ingrid’s parents didn’t think this way. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/70 "2007-08-19T13:21:05Z")
Boyo Jim, this is a Wikipedia article about the young polar bear. It doesn’t mention PETA, but does go into the supposed controversy involving the statements of an animal rights activist. > **[Knut (polar bear)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knut_(polar_bear))** > > Knut (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}German pronunciation: \[ˈknuːt\] ⓘ; 5 December 2006 – 19 March 2011) was an orphaned polar bear born in captivity at the Berlin Zoological Garden. Rejected by his mother at birth, he was raised by zookeepers. He was the first polar bear cub to survive past infancy at the Berlin Zoo in more than... ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/71 "2007-08-19T15:41:15Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] My experience with arguing with you on such points is that you focus on minutiae and tangents such as these to the extent that such argument proves unproductive. If that’s something that equates to a victory for you, have it with my blessing. [/QUOTE] So, you advance an \*ad \*\*hominem \*argument against Penn and Teller, decline to support it with any evidence, proclaim that questioning an uncategorical statement of yours is focussing on minutiae, and then advance an _ad hominem_ argument against me. Why not just admit that you went off half-cocked? It’s clear that you have a beef with Penn and Teller, but why not admit that all it amounts to is that you simply don’t like them? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/72 "2007-08-19T16:41:58Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Lute, did you read what I was responding to? Yes, PETA thinks pet ownership is akin to slavery. Yes, that’s a silly position. No, it is not the same thing as “better they be dead than caged.” It’s not remotely the same thing. A billion more quotes pointing out that they don’t like pet ownership won’t change that. [/QUOTE] Lefty, did you read all of what I posted? They believe the domesticated dog & cat should be wiped out. How is that not the same as “better they be dead than caged”? What better way to wipe them out than at a shelter? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/73 "2007-08-19T16:53:51Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] Lefty, did you read all of what I posted? They believe the domesticated dog & cat should be wiped out. How is that not the same as “better they be dead than caged”? What better way to wipe them out than at a shelter? [/QUOTE] And the way they say that the dog & cat should be wiped out is through “neutering, neutering, and more neutering.” Neutering an animal increases its expected life span, by decreasing the risk of certain types of cancer. They’re not wishing death on a single animal–rather, they’re (crazily, IMO) wishing the end of the subspecies. ANd they CERTAINLY don’t suggest in any of your quotes that we end the subspecies through euthanasia: that’s a completely different nutty position. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/74 "2007-08-19T17:12:21Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] That is opposition by any standard, except possibly yours. What does opposition mean in your world? [/QUOTE] Maybe I ought to consider it opposition. I’m just used to PETA’s opposition being totally overblown and ridiculous–protests, naked celebrities, offensive ad campaigns, etc. No-kill shelters they call “less-than-ideal” and suggest that money spent on them could better be spent on spaying and neutering. If that’s “opposition,” by PETA’s standards it’s pretty damn milquetoast. The OP suggested that PETA opposed no-kill shelters, such as the one from which he’d adopted his dog; I inferred that he thought PETA objected to his adopting from a no-kill shelter. Nothing in their critique of no-kills (at least that I’ve seen) criticizes those who adopt from them. Either my inference or his was incorrect. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/75 "2007-08-19T17:29:44Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] They’re not wishing death on a single animal–rather, they’re (crazily, IMO) wishing the end of the subspecies. [/QUOTE] Again: how is that different from “better dead than caged”? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/76 "2007-08-19T17:31:55Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] Again: how is that different from “better dead than caged”? [/QUOTE] I’m not sure how they’re remotely the same. They’re not saying any particular animal should be dead or caged. Perhaps they’re saying “better nonexistent than caged,” but that’s a whole nother kettle. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/77 "2007-08-19T17:33:10Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] I’m not sure how they’re remotely the same. They’re not saying any particular animal should be dead or caged. Perhaps they’re saying “better nonexistent than caged,” but that’s a whole nother kettle. Daniel [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/78 "2007-08-19T17:36:33Z")
Every single euthanized pet is one step closer to no more pets. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/79 "2007-08-19T17:47:29Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] I am no fan of PETA, but it is a different position–letting domestic animals die off without progeny is nothing like euthanizing someone’s pets. And while I support the idea of pets, I do see their point about "no-kill’ shelters–they serve to further hide the reality that almost 10 million dogs and cats have to be put down each year, by putting an organizational seperation between ‘adoptable’ animals, that people see, and the others, that are quietly killed. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2007, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947/80 "2007-08-19T19:06:11Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] Every single euthanized pet is one step closer to no more pets. [/QUOTE] As is every single dog killed in a fight. Does PETA therefore support dogfighting? Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-i-overreact-peta-rant-long/415947.md?page=5)