# Sometimes too much is too little **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2022, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504 "2022-03-22T14:19:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/21 "2022-03-24T18:30:16Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > there’s no such thing as a medical murder case Wasn’t there such a thing in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2022, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/22 "2022-03-24T23:09:06Z")
You’re actually quoting the attorney, so maybe you should ask him. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2022, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/23 "2022-03-25T02:49:52Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Also, IMO, the “bad design” is less so the warning prompts and moreso the cabinet not recognizing brand names. Just pointing out that this is less straightforward than it might appear on the surface. Brand names are just that… marketing inventions that are not stand-ins for the underlying drug. Brand names also change, while the name of the drug itself does not. Pharmacists might substitute a generic even when the prescription names a brand name (for cost/insurance coverage reasons). So, the generic name is typically going to be your “primary key”. And, you don’t want people dispensing brand name drugs if the patient’s insurance won’t cover it. Yes, there are plenty of MDs who might want to enter or search by brand name, but this isn’t as obviously broken a system as it might seem. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2022, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/24 "2022-03-25T22:24:41Z")
Update: > **[Former Vanderbilt nurse RaDonda Vaught found guilty on 2 charges in 2017...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/03/25/radonda-vaught-verdict-vanderbilt-nurse-guilty/7169480001/)** > > RaDonda Vaught was convicted of reckless homicide and impaired adult abuse in the death of Charlene Murphey at Vanderbilt University Medical Center. > A jury on Friday convicted a former Nashville nurse of reckless homicide and impaired adult abuse after she was accused of inadvertently injecting a patient with a deadly dose of a paralyzing drug. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/25 "2022-03-26T08:47:37Z")
I’m a nurse who’s administered lots of Versed and vecuronium, we use an automated dispense Bot, that sometimes acts hindkey. At a quick glance, I’d say the prosocuter would have a steep slope to climb to convince me that the mens rea for homicide could be prove beyound a reasonable doubt. I’ll take a deep dive into the story, if people want ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/26 "2022-03-26T11:54:51Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > At a quick glance, I’d say the prosocuter would have a steep slope to climb to convince me that the mens rea for homicide could be prove beyound a reasonable doubt. IANAL, but the Tennessee Reckless Homicide law appears to have a pretty low bar for _mens rea_: > **Reckless Homicide in Tennessee is** simply, the reckless killing of another and is a [Class D Felony](https://nashvilleattorneynow.com/2010/criminal-defense/felony-criminal-sentence-ranges-nashville-criminal-lawyer/). It provides for a lower standard of mental culpability, or mens rea. Reckless is conduct whereby the actor does not desire harmful consequence but foresees (or should foresee) the possibility and consciously takes the risk. [**SOURCE**](https://nashvilleattorneynow.com/nashville-criminal-attorney-explains-tennessee-murder-laws/) Here is the TN jury instruction for reckless homicide: > [@](#): > > Any person who commits the offense of reckless homicide is guilty of a crime. For you to find the defendant guilty of this offense, the state must have proven beyond a reasonable doubt the existence of the following essential elements: > > (1) that the defendant killed the alleged victim; and > (2) that the defendant acted recklessly. > “Recklessly” means that a person acts recklessly when the person is aware of, but consciously disregards, a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the alleged victim will be killed. > > The risk must be of such a nature and degree that its disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the accused person’s standpoint. > > The requirement of “recklessly” is also established if it is shown that the defendant acted intentionally or knowingly. > “Intentionally” means that a person acts intentionally when it is the person’s conscious objective or desire to cause the death of the alleged victim. > “Knowingly” means that a person acts with an awareness that [his] [her] conduct is reasonably certain to cause the death of the alleged victim. [**SOURCE - 15pp PDF**](https://www.nashvilletnlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/State-v.-Page.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/27 "2022-03-26T14:09:15Z")
There isn’t a _mens rea_ for “homicide” , because there are different types of homicide and each requires a different mental state. For example, in my state “criminally negligent homicide” might just involve failing to perceive a risk that a reasonable person would have. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/28 "2022-03-26T14:26:17Z")
I would consider it to be more or less the equivalent to killing someone with your car while texting. You didn’t mean to do so, but your reckless disregard for the safety of others lead to their death. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/29 "2022-03-27T19:57:49Z")
Exactly (bolding mine) > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Any person who commits the offense of reckless homicide is guilty of a crime. For you to find the defendant guilty of this offense, the state must have proven beyond a reasonable doubt the existence of the following essential elements: > > (1) that the defendant killed the alleged victim; and > (2) that the defendant acted recklessly. > “Recklessly” means that a person acts recklessly when the person is aware of, but **consciously** disregards, a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the alleged victim will be killed. > > The risk must be of such a nature and degree that its disregard constitutes a **gross deviation from the standard of care** that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the accused person’s standpoint. > > The requirement of “recklessly” is also established if it is shown that the defendant acted **intentionally or knowingly**. > “Intentionally” means that a person acts intentionally when it is the person’s **conscious objective or desire to cause the death** of the alleged victim. > “Knowingly” means that a person acts with an awareness that [his] [her] conduct is reasonably certain to cause the death of the alleged victim. If they thought she knew she was injecting vecuronium they’d have charged her with more. A lot hinges on her claim the the hospital had permitted or promoted safety overrides as a work around to the bugs after the software update. They’re unlikely to cop to it, I don’t find it implausible at all, based on how the hospitals that I’ve worked in behave. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/30 "2022-03-27T20:58:48Z")
Sure, they would have charged her with more if it was thought that she did it intentionally. But I have to ask, since you are a nurse, does the standard of care not require nurses to look at the vial at some point before the medication is administered , or to monitor the patient after administering the medication ? Those lapses have nothing to do with the cabinet and in fact , if the cabinet gets “hinky” that seems to make it even more necessary to make sure you are administering the correct drug. As for > At a quick glance, I’d say the prosocuter would have a steep slope to climb to convince me that the mens rea for homicide could be prove beyound a reasonable doubt. That might be true but post 24 (right above yours) has a link to an article reporting that she was in fact convicted of reckless homicide and impaired adult abuse , so apparently the jury felt the prosecutor did prove that she was reckless. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/31 "2022-03-27T21:06:37Z")
Also, @outlierrn : the second part of the jury instructions – where you bolded – shows _another way_ that a person could be found guilty of reckless homicide. It is not another requirement that _must also_ be present. It’s either/or. [Married to a MSN, FNP (a "Master’s-prepared Nurse Practitioner, for those not fluent with the alphabet soup)] ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/32 "2022-03-27T21:09:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I would need to know if these types of warnings actually happen in less important situations. Are they in fact regularly shutting down warnings like this? Yes. Does a nurse normally, when dispensing the _proper medication_, still have to scroll through a bunch of warnings? And in any case, this is a mistake (a really bad, negligent one), not a criminal act. Crimes usually need intent. She should be sanctioned and sued, released of her certification and not allowed to serve in the field. To send her to prison is absurd. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > IANAL, but the Tennessee Reckless Homicide law appears to have a pretty low bar for _mens rea_ : Sure, but note that all important word there: **Tennessee** I stand behind T_o send her to prison is absurd._ ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/33 "2022-03-27T21:12:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And in any case, this is a mistake (a really bad, negligent one), not a criminal act. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it _can_ be both. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/34 "2022-03-27T21:14:11Z")
IMHO, there should almost never be prison without criminal intent. Intent is the big thing. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/35 "2022-03-27T21:15:50Z")
This is promising to be a tangent, but I’ll offer one question: A driver – under the influence of meth, Oxy, and alcohol – drives up onto a sidewalk, running over and killing a dozen people, five of whom are young children. No intent evident. ? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/36 "2022-03-27T21:17:00Z")
He intended to take illegal drugs. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/37 "2022-03-27T21:27:37Z")
Quite commonly, the story of these negligence/recklessness cases is that the accused _chose_ to be doing _something other than the important task that should have commanded their attention._ But I’ll drop the threadjack here. Happy to join in if you want to start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/38 "2022-03-27T21:30:10Z")
According to [this](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/03/25/1088902487/former-nurse-found-guilty-in-accidental-injection-death-of-75-year-old-patient) > The neglect charge stemmed from allegations that Vaught did not properly monitor Murphey after she was injected with the wrong drug She certainly intended to walk away from the patient after administering the medication , leaving her unmonitored. And from my own experiences with Versed and some reading I have done , that monitoring would have been required even if Versed had been the drug she administered. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/39 "2022-03-27T23:09:41Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > But I have to ask, since you are a nurse, does the standard of care not require nurses to look at the vial at some point before the medication is administered Absolutely. Every drug, every time. But while ‘I looked at it, but I didn’t _see_ it’ is a common human fuck up, it’s also kinda the definition of not doing something consciously, something you weren’t choosing to do. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/40 "2022-03-27T23:13:42Z")
Please understand I’m not defending this (ex)nurse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504.md?page=3)