# Sometimes too much is too little **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2022, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504 "2022-03-22T14:19:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/61 "2022-05-15T18:37:53Z")
I note that they used a deferred sentence, so if she doesn’t reoffend (which should be trivially easy) her felony record will be expunged. I can’t to speak for the judge, but it seems like they gave her the most lenient sentence possible. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/62 "2022-05-17T21:42:33Z")
> [@Fluffy\_PickleSniffer](#): > > It raises the question - are we losing good nurses because of things like this? Weren’t we supposed to be losing nurses en masse because of Covid-19 vaccine requirements? I haven’t seen convincing evidence of that. This case was an outlier involving an extreme situation. Some might argue that a better question to be raised is: how many patients are we losing because of highly avoidable gross errors? ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/63 "2022-05-17T21:51:03Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Some might argue that a better question to be raised is: how many patients are we losing because of highly avoidable gross errors? Last I heard, about a quarter-mil per annum (looks like this link was already posted upthread @Jasmine ): > **[Your Health Care May Kill You: Medical Errors - PubMed](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28186008/)** > > Recent studies of medical errors have estimated errors may account for as many as 251,000 deaths annually in the United States (U.S)., making medical errors the third leading cause of death. Error rates are significantly higher in the U.S. than in... And for those who enjoy rallying around the flag … > Error rates are significantly higher in the U.S. than in other developed countries such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and the United Kingdom (U.K). At the same time less than 10 percent of medical errors are reported. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/64 "2022-05-17T22:00:52Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > > [@Jackmannii](#): > > > > Some might argue that a better question to be raised is: how many patients are we losing because of highly avoidable gross errors? > > Last I heard, about a quarter-mil per annum Ironically, that figure itself appears to be [grossly in error](https://respectfulinsolence.com/2021/08/13/misinformation-about-medical-errors-rears-its-ugly-head-in-stat/). Medical errors are a significant problem but do not constitute “the third leading cause of death”, as quackery promoters like to argue. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/65 "2022-05-17T22:09:02Z")
Particularly if there’s any significant degree of underreporting, pretty much any stat will be worth questioning. Another article that addresses the subject: > **[Measuring and Responding to Deaths From Medical Errors | PSNet](https://psnet.ahrq.gov/perspective/measuring-and-responding-deaths-medical-errors)** > > The toll of medical errors is often expressed in terms of mortality attributable to patient safety problems. In 2016, there was considerable debate regarding the number of patients who die due to medical errors. This Annual Perspective explores the... > The seminal Institute of Medicine _[To Err Is Human](https://psnet.ahrq.gov/issue/err-human-building-safer-health-system)_ report estimated that between 44,000 and 98,000 Americans die every year due to preventable adverse events. Although there is no doubt that quantifying the magnitude of preventable harm galvanized the field, the mortality estimate drew criticism almost immediately (including from some of the [researchers](https://psnet.ahrq.gov/issue/institute-medicine-report-medical-errors-could-it-do-harm) whose studies were used to derive the estimate). > [@](#): > > Since the publication of the IOM report, multiple researchers and commentators have produced [widely varying](https://psnet.ahrq.gov/issue/new-evidence-based-estimate-patient-harms-associated-hospital-care) estimates of the death toll ascribable to safety problems. This controversy was renewed in 2016 with the publication of a widely publicized [study](https://psnet.ahrq.gov/issue/medical-error-third-leading-cause-death-us) in the _British Medical Journal_ that estimated that more than 250,000 patients die every year in the United States as a result of errors. If true, this would make medical error the third leading cause of death in the US. > > The 2016 study—and earlier studies that also put the death toll from medical errors in the hundreds of thousand—have drawn significant criticism from other patient safety experts. > [@](#): > > **Summary** > > The number of deaths due to preventable harm is controversial. Although some analyses claim that hundreds of thousands of patients may die every year in the US due to medical errors, these estimates rely on flawed methodology and are not supported by more rigorous studies. Regardless, individual hospitals almost certainly experience several preventable deaths each year, and they should implement formal strategies for identifying preventable deaths and analyzing these deaths to determine systematic problems in care. At a national level, the toll is clearly in the tens of thousands of deaths per year, perhaps more. Given this toll, more attention to this problem is needed. And, because most research has focused on preventable deaths in hospital care, and effort should go into identifying and analyzing the causes of preventable deaths in other health care settings. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2022, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/66 "2022-05-17T22:27:24Z")
> [@](#): > > …individual hospitals almost certainly experience several preventable deaths each year, and they should implement formal strategies for identifying preventable deaths and analyzing these deaths to determine systematic problems in care. From the linked article in the OP: “According to [documents filed in the case](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6785652-RaDonda-Vaught-DA-Discovery), Vaught initially tried to withdraw Versed from a cabinet by typing “VE” into its search function without realizing she should have been looking for its generic name, midazolam. When the cabinet did not produce Versed, Vaught triggered an “override” that unlocked a much larger swath of medications, then searched for “VE” again. This time, the cabinet offered vecuronium.” “Vaught then overlooked or bypassed at least five warnings or pop-ups saying she was withdrawing a paralyzing medication, documents state. She also did not recognize that Versed is a liquid but vecuronium is a powder that must be mixed into liquid, documents state.” “Finally, just before injecting the vecuronium, Vaught stuck a syringe into the vial, which would have required her to “look directly” at a bottle cap that read “Warning: Paralyzing Agent,” the DA’s documents state.” It seems that there _were_ formal strategies in place to avoid such an error, which were bypassed, overlooked or ignored. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2022, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/67 "2022-05-28T20:30:56Z")
No, she was indeed not a good nurse. Now, while I was against criminal charges for her egregious mistake, I did say that a lifetime ban. loss of license and of course civil liability would be reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2022, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/68 "2022-08-24T14:22:10Z")
Another nurse [has been charged with murder](https://www.wkyt.com/2022/08/23/woman-accused-killing-man-lexington-by-intentional-medical-maltreatment/). The story given by law enforcement sounds like a bit more than negligence. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2022, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504/69 "2022-08-28T11:07:50Z")
Now from my perspective, this is an entirely different offense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-too-much-is-too-little/961504.md?page=3)