# Sometimes you can't win, no matter what. \[Environment vs disabled access in straws.\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777 "2018-07-12T13:24:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/21 "2018-07-12T18:59:18Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I agree that the needs of the disabled are often ignored/forgotten. To be fair, I think it’s not entirely ‘ignored/forgotten’ as often as it’s “I had no idea/how would I have known that”. The straw issue is a perfect example. Up until about a week, I never, ever would have guessed that getting rid of straws would be any more of an issue for disabled people than anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/22 "2018-07-12T18:59:47Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Somehow straw development, use, and distribution has managed to serve the needs of the disabled (that monolithic group) perfectly and completely by accident, and any changes are completely unacceptable and obviously going to lead to the end times. > > Bottom line: I trust people to know what is problematic for themselves, but I also trust that people hate uninvited change. I don’t trust people to always be able to differentiate between changes that are unreasonable and changes that they are emotionally resistant to. Very good points. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/23 "2018-07-12T19:14:30Z")
Coincidentally, I can hear some co-workers talking about this exact issue. One of them was saying that she was trying to find a starbucks with the new lids (because of the novelty). That started a discussion about the straws. She mentioned that she’s tried replaceable plastic straws but because she bites her straws they crack after a few uses and the metal ones hurt. I don’t know if she was talking about the temperature or just it clanking around on her teeth (the teeth thing is what I think about when I see those metal straws). ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/24 "2018-07-12T20:07:33Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Say what now? That’s 1.5 straws a day per person. I know a lot of people eat at fast food a lot. But an average of 1.5 times a day? It’s not just fast food. We went out to dinner last weekend. First we were brought a glass of water (glass, not disposable) with a straw. Then I ordered an Arne Palmer. It also came in a glass, with a straw. It was a hot day, and each time they brought me a refill, they brought me a new straw. I bet I had 4 straws, for dinner that day, at a sit down restaurant. Yes, a straw is useful if I am taking a beverage with me, but I don’t need one for a beverage while eating in. And I sure don’t need a new one with each refill. Also, I don’t have much sympathy for the “Oh no, I might forget my straw at home” argument. There are lots of things people might forget at home. We can’t possibly expect others (restaurants/stores/employers/friends) to provide everything we might leave behind. Sometimes we just have to take that responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![backsidejohnny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/backsidejohnny/32/280_2.png) [@backsidejohnny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/backsidejohnny)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/25 "2018-07-12T20:34:54Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Coincidentally, I can hear some co-workers talking about this exact issue. One of them was saying that she was trying to find a starbucks with the new lids (because of the novelty). That started a discussion about the straws. She mentioned that she’s tried replaceable plastic straws but because she bites her straws they crack after a few uses and the metal ones hurt. I don’t know if she was talking about the temperature or just it clanking around on her teeth (the teeth thing is what I think about when I see those metal straws). I bet with a little “practice” a metal straw will be as easy to use as metal forks and spoons. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/26 "2018-07-12T20:53:40Z")
Hey, you keep piling on these little indignities and it eventually breaks the camel’s back! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/27 "2018-07-12T20:54:43Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > Yes, a straw is useful if I am taking a beverage with me, but I don’t need one for a beverage while eating in. I need one - the straw is my major fidget instrument while sitting at a restaurant. If I don’t have one to stir my water with I don’t know what to do with myself. (I know because this has happened.) I don’t need a different straw with each new cup, mind you. Though I can see why a restaurant that handles refills with fresh glasses would do this - you don’t have to worry about whether a given customer already has a straw, and you don’t have to worry about ‘polluting’ one type of drink with drops left on a straw that had been in a different kind of drink. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/28 "2018-07-12T21:38:31Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > I think we should be trying very hard to make things easier for people with disabilities whenever we can. I don’t see anything in the article in the OP that makes me think that there is no chance of a solution that meets the needs of people with disabilities. Nor do I feel that people with disabilities asking for an accommodation turns an issue into an automatic losing proposition for restaurants, nor that there would actually be a problem with accommodating them. > > It’s not obvious nothing that can be done. It might be true, but one article does not establish that. I trust people with disabilities to know what’s problematic and I expect everyone to try to take those issues into account when making policy. My problem is more with the _expectation_ on the part of these disabled people that a specific kind of straw will be available for them, because it’s more convenient for them instead of having to bring their own because they don’t like the provided option. They don’t even HAVE to provide straws at all; and getting butthurt because they’re not providing your favorite ones is ridiculous, disabled or not. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/29 "2018-07-12T22:29:39Z")
Do right by the environment, the disabled cry foul … do right by the disabled, the labor unions cry foul … do right by the labor unions, the environmentalists cry foul … this is what we get when everybody gets a trophy … ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/30 "2018-07-12T22:32:18Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Do right by the environment, the disabled cry foul … do right by the disabled, the labor unions cry foul … do right by the labor unions, the environmentalists cry foul … this is what we get when everybody gets a trophy … …and thus we should burn the environment, kill the disabled, and execute the labor agitators! ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/31 "2018-07-12T23:01:29Z")
> [@backsidejohnny](#): > > I bet with a little “practice” a metal straw will be as easy to use as metal forks and spoons. It’s hard to practice not getting burned by a metal straw when you drink coffee through it, which I never thought about until I read that article. ---
**Author:** ![backsidejohnny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/backsidejohnny/32/280_2.png) [@backsidejohnny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/backsidejohnny)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/32 "2018-07-12T23:37:06Z")
\*\*Originally Posted by Joey P \*\* Coincidentally, I can hear some co-workers talking about this exact issue. One of them was saying that she was trying to find a starbucks with the new lids (because of the novelty). That started a discussion about the straws. She mentioned that she’s tried replaceable plastic straws but because she bites her straws they crack after a few uses and the metal ones hurt. I don’t know if she was talking about the temperature or just it clanking around on her teeth **(the teeth thing is what I think about when I see those metal straws).** OK. I was just responding to concerns as you stated. If you are disabled, I apologize. If you’re not, maybe you should practice drinking without a straw. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/33 "2018-07-13T00:17:44Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > A history of the drinking straw will be useful for this discussion: > [https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/straws-history](https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/straws-history) Thanks for the article. When I was growing up we always used paper straws (pre-1960.) Plastic is better, but not enough to clog up the environment. I wonder if this group of the disabled is being funded by the plastic straw makers. When we in California banned plastic bags, there was a lot of doom and gloom and claims that poor people could no longer afford to go shopping and buy bags. Of course most people bring them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/34 "2018-07-13T00:19:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hey, you keep piling on these little indignities and it eventually breaks the camel’s back! I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/35 "2018-07-13T00:22:20Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > I did not suggest that. I said in moving forward, we should pay attention to the concerns raised by people with disabilities and see if there is a way to accommodate their needs without simply shrugging and saying it’s their problem. A very simple solution is to make plastic straws which won’t fall apart with multiple uses. I suspect ones do today because they are made as cheaply as possible. Ones made for reuse can be made slightly more expensive. Those can be brought to the restaurant, or even given out on an as needed basis. Problem solved, environment saved. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/36 "2018-07-13T00:27:35Z")
> [@](#): > > OK. I was just responding to concerns as you stated. > > If you are disabled, I apologize. If you’re not, maybe you should practice drinking without a straw. But you only responded to half of the sentence that you bolded. There are two concerns in that sentence and I stated that I didn’t know which one she was speaking about. Also, I only brought it up because those were two of the reasons that people don’t like using metal straws mentioned in the article. Here’s the entire thing… > [@backsidejohnny](#): > > \*\*Originally Posted by Joey P \*\* > I don’t know if she was talking about the temperature or just it clanking around on her teeth **(the teeth thing is what I think about when I see those metal straws).** ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/37 "2018-07-13T00:52:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > A very simple solution is to make plastic straws which won’t fall apart with multiple uses. I suspect ones do today because they are made as cheaply as possible. Ones made for reuse can be made slightly more expensive. > Those can be brought to the restaurant, or even given out on an as needed basis. > Problem solved, environment saved. Seems like a solution to me, but I can’t speak for people with disabilities and don’t know all of the issues. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/38 "2018-07-13T01:05:08Z")
> [@bump](#): > > But the thing is we have 500 million straws per day on one hand, and on the other, we have a relatively tiny number of disabled people who in the final analysis are griping about having to bring their own reusable straws or plastic straws from home, because the restaurants won’t bend over backward to accommodate them exactly. > > That was my point- there’s no winning for the restaraunts- they either contribute to the plastic straw issue, or they rile up the disabled for not making things easy for them. I don’t see how this is a “no win” situation for restaurants. How is “Don’t give straws out to everyone automatically, but keep some behind the counter if someone requests one,” not a solution here? Who’s “losing” in that scenario? ---
**Author:** ![backsidejohnny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/backsidejohnny/32/280_2.png) [@backsidejohnny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/backsidejohnny)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/39 "2018-07-13T01:28:59Z")
[quote=“Joey\_P, post:36, topic:817777”] But you only responded to half of the sentence that you bolded. There are two concerns in that sentence and I stated that I didn’t know which one she was speaking about. Also, I only brought it up because those were two of the reasons that people don’t like using metal straws mentioned in the article. **From your post #23 - \*\* I don’t know if she was talking about the temperature or just it clanking around on her teeth** (the teeth thing is what I think about when I see those metal straws). \*\* As I stated in the previous post, I was responding to your concerns (in bold). Not your friend’s experience. Then you read an article and find that it’s the temperature is the main challenge. Starbucks will figure something out. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/40 "2018-07-13T05:13:30Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Coincidentally, I can hear some co-workers talking about this exact issue. One of them was saying that she was trying to find a starbucks with the new lids (because of the novelty). That started a discussion about the straws. She mentioned that she’s tried replaceable plastic straws but because she bites her straws … In horses, this is called ‘cribbing’. It’s a disgusting & unhealthy habit that horse trainer & vets work to get rid of, but it’s pretty hard to unlearn once a horse becomes addicted to it. It causes problems with their nutrition and the horses’ digestive system. Among other things, it causes quite an increased amount of farting. I’d stay downwind of this co-worker. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777.md?page=3)