# Sometimes you can't win, no matter what. \[Environment vs disabled access in straws.\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777 "2018-07-12T13:24:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/41 "2018-07-13T14:45:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t see how this is a “no win” situation for restaurants. How is “Don’t give straws out to everyone automatically, but keep some behind the counter if someone requests one,” not a solution here? Who’s “losing” in that scenario? My point is that it seems like these days, if some organization or institution tries to do something helpful in some way, there ALWAYS some other group bitching monstrously about it like they shot their dogs or something. Yes, restaurants can keep a small stock of plastic straws on hand if they want to. But they shouldn’t be required to, any more than they’re required to hand out straws at all to anyone. That’s my point in large part; restaurants and companies are trying to do right by the environment by eliminating plastic straws, and here’s a group of, frankly, entitled disabled people bitching because these places aren’t providing the _convenience item that’s most convenient to them_. They’re not required to provide straws at all, and they’re certainly not required to keep a special stock for disabled people either, and they’re doing nothing wrong by not doing so. Now if they come to the conclusion that they want to for financial reasons (they have a large disabled customer base) or because they think it’s the right thing to do, that’s fine and even a good thing. But I don’t think they should be being guilted into it or whined into it by a bunch of people who are unwilling to take a little personal initiative and bring their own, if it’s such a big deal to them. I’ve known people who bring their own toilet paper, soap, hot sauce, etc… to places they go, because they didn’t like the common options. Why is a straw somehow different just because these people are disabled? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/42 "2018-07-13T14:57:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t see how this is a “no win” situation for restaurants. How is “Don’t give straws out to everyone automatically, but keep some behind the counter if someone requests one,” not a solution here? Who’s “losing” in that scenario? As I understand it: Because they’re forcing those who need the straws to ask for them which is embarrassing and draws attention to their disability/puts them at the mercy of the servers behind the counter who might feel empowered to judge whether or not they truly need the straws. IOW: disabled people shouldn’t have to ask for the access ramp to be deployed every time they want to enter the building; it should be there all the time so they can go about their day as independently as possible. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/43 "2018-07-13T15:07:32Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > In horses, this is called ‘cribbing’. It’s a disgusting & unhealthy habit that horse trainer & vets work to get rid of, but it’s pretty hard to unlearn once a horse becomes addicted to it. It causes problems with their nutrition and the horses’ digestive system. Among other things, it causes quite an increased amount of farting. > > I’d stay downwind of this co-worker. I didn’t even know horses could use straws, or that they like coffee. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/44 "2018-07-13T15:34:17Z")
> [@bump](#): > > That’s my point in large part; restaurants and companies are trying to do right by the environment by eliminating plastic straws, and here’s a group of, frankly, entitled disabled people bitching because these places aren’t providing the _convenience item that’s most convenient to them_. > [@From the article you cited](#): > > “Other types of straws simply do not offer the combination of strength, flexibility, and safety that plastic straws do,” Disability Rights Washington, a nonprofit with offices in Seattle, said in a letter it coauthored to the city. > > Gilbert has tried to do his part to educate others on why plastic is the most efficient material, but he often gets told he’s wrong. > > “I’d be more than happy to use more environmentally friendly straws,” he said. “(The disabled community) isn’t trying to be anti-environment. We’re just protecting disabled people.” …I’m fascinated that you characterize this kind of response as “a group of, frankly, entitled disabled people bitching.” That doesn’t seem like a fair characterization at all. And this isn’t a matter of convenience. Again, from the article you cited: > [@](#): > > Going without straws can mean struggling through the physical motion of putting a drink to a mouth, or leaking liquid into the lungs, or choking. Do you think its unreasonable to be able to want to have a drink at a restaurant without a very good chance of choking? Plastic straws are ubiquitous now. And plastic straws mean that many disabled people can live a normal life and go out to restaurants and cafes and they can enjoy a drink and have a good time. You aren’t “entitled” if you want to be able to do the same things as everyone else can do. The entire point is that sometimes doing a “good thing” can have “bad consequences” for somebody else. Of course people should be speaking up. They have to speak up. If they don’t speak up how on earth are there concerns going to be heard? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/45 "2018-07-13T16:12:11Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > As I understand it: > > Because they’re forcing those who need the straws to ask for them which is embarrassing and draws attention to their disability/puts them at the mercy of the servers behind the counter who might feel empowered to judge whether or not they truly need the straws. > > IOW: disabled people shouldn’t have to ask for the access ramp to be deployed every time they want to enter the building; it should be there all the time so they can go about their day as independently as possible. I’m glad I’m not disabled and thus have the power to be unashamed about asking for a straw or locking horns with some asshole server that thinks they have the right to argue with me about a polite request. Though if a restaurant wanted to have fun/invite massive criticism, all they’d have to do is charge for the things. “You don’t want a cheap paper straw (which are now made out of tissue for some reason)? PAY.” ---
**Author:** ![kcor1953](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kcor1953/32/3221_2.png) [@kcor1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kcor1953)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/46 "2018-07-13T21:10:21Z")
Until reading this thread I didn’t understand that people drink coffee with straws \*unless \*they were what is being called disabled. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/47 "2018-07-13T21:11:52Z")
> [@kcor1953](#): > > Until reading this thread I didn’t understand that people drink coffee with straws \*unless \*they were what is being called disabled. Iced coffee in a cup with a lid, like you would iced tea or soda, all the time. Hot coffee, never. ---
**Author:** ![kcor1953](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kcor1953/32/3221_2.png) [@kcor1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kcor1953)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/48 "2018-07-13T21:46:05Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Iced coffee in a cup with a lid, like you would iced tea or soda, all the time. Hot coffee, never. Oh. Wimpy drinks. I get it now, thanks. That indeed is a big big cohort. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/49 "2018-07-13T21:56:49Z")
it turns out that Starbucks will be using _more_ plastic without the straws, because of the new lids. :rolleyes: > **[Starbucks Bans Plastic Straws, Winds Up Using More Plastic](https://reason.com/2018/07/12/starbucks-straw-ban-will-see-the-company/)** > > A Reason investigation reveals that the coffee giant's new cold drink lids use more plastic than the old straw/lid combo. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/50 "2018-07-13T22:23:50Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > it turns out that Starbucks will be using _more_ plastic without the straws, because of the new lids. :rolleyes: > > [Starbucks Bans Plastic Straws, Winds Up Using More Plastic](https://reason.com/blog/2018/07/12/starbucks-straw-ban-will-see-the-company) [Forbes](https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/07/10/starbucks-to-ditch-plastic-straws-worldwide-for-adult-sippy-cups/#569ab6abc9eb) > [@](#): > > Plastic straws, like the ones used at Starbucks, have fallen out of favor lately as they are rarely recycled. **Starbucks plastic straws are recyclable. However, given their size and light weight they are often mechanically sorted out during the recycling process and end up in landfills and waterways.** > > Starbucks has settled on an alternative to plastic straw use: the adult sippy cup lid. \*\*The lid features a raised lip and will be fully recyclable. \*\*Some drinks will continue to have straws, including Frappuccinos, but those straws will be made with either compostable plastic or paper. Ayn Rand was once a contributor to Reason. Why are you citing a site that hires nutcases? ---
**Author:** ![Dobbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Dobbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dobbs)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/51 "2018-07-13T23:01:29Z")
Back in the day, I came down with [Bell’s palsy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_palsy). Basically, one half of my face didn’t move. And because half of my mouth had no movement, and no resistance to being moved, eating and drinking was likely to be ugly and messy. I learned very quickly that the only way to drink, other than a water fountain, was to use a straw. Every drop of liquid went thru a straw - coffee, soda, beer, wine, or anything else in a bottle, can or glass, and yes, you get strange looks drinking beer thru a straw. Sure, most establishments might have straws available, but how about for a coke from a vending machine at work? Or at home. Well. I learned to always have a straw at hand, and I learned fast. For about 5 weeks, a few straws were about my person, or close at hand, or I didn’t drink. Sometimes, the world isn’t as comfortable as you’d like. Asking the world to accommodate your special needs, when there a simple solution you can adopt for yourself, is just lazy. Fun fact - when you go to the emergency room because half of your face isn’t moving, you go right to the front of the line, even past people that are bleeding. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/52 "2018-07-13T23:56:52Z")
Be reasonable. How many people are actually going to recycle their coffee lids? That was for running coach, not **Dobbs** ---
**Author:** ![PoppaSan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/poppasan/32/189_2.png) [@PoppaSan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoppaSan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/53 "2018-07-14T00:12:30Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > … > > I’d stay downwind of this co-worker. You do and you’ll stand alone. Personally I’ll be upwind. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/54 "2018-07-14T01:20:03Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Be reasonable. How many people are actually going to recycle their coffee lids? > > That was for running coach, not **Dobbs** What’s that got to do with the validity of your cite? They deliberately failed to mention the fact the lids are more likely to be recycled than the straws. Can you say agenda? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/55 "2018-07-14T04:27:33Z")
good God, you people are grasping at threads, clinging to fragments, tilting at windmills, gesturing at noodles, etc ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/56 "2018-07-14T04:50:31Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > What’s that got to do with the validity of your cite? They deliberately failed to mention the fact the lids are more likely to be recycled than the straws. Ok, so one is on the subway, train, walking around downtown, or even in the office, where the heck are they likely to recycle their plastic lid? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/57 "2018-07-14T08:09:08Z")
> [@Dobbs](#): > > Sometimes, the world isn’t as comfortable as you’d like. Asking the world to accommodate your special needs, when there a simple solution you can adopt for yourself, is just lazy. In fairness, this isn’t asking for a special accommodation. It is asking that a now freely provided item almost everywhere not be taken away. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/58 "2018-07-14T08:24:39Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > To be fair, I think it’s not entirely ‘ignored/forgotten’ as often as it’s “I had no idea/how would I have known that”. The straw issue is a perfect example. Up until about a week, I never, ever would have guessed that getting rid of straws would be any more of an issue for disabled people than anyone else. Some people can’t lift a cup. There’s more to it of course, but that’s a start. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/59 "2018-07-14T11:31:26Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Ok, so one is on the subway, train, walking around downtown, or even in the office, where the heck are they likely to recycle their plastic lid? I don’t know where you live, but the two places I’ve lived over the last decade+ has recycling on city streets, by the subways, in my offices etc. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777/60 "2018-07-14T15:20:08Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > They deliberately failed to mention the fact the lids are more likely to be recycled than the straws. > Can you say agenda? I read that as the KIDS are more likely to be recycled. Maybe a little Veruca Salt moment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sometimes-you-cant-win-no-matter-what-environment-vs-disabled-access-in-straws/817777.md?page=4)