# Son cut from the team. Does mom have a case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528 "2012-05-10T17:46:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/101 "2012-05-16T14:48:58Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Maybe he should study and look for a real scholarship. Not to interrupt the sneering, but we know nothing about this kid’s scholastic achievements. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/102 "2012-05-16T16:05:06Z")
Is there any chance that this case has merits on promissary estoppel in that the student sacrificed something (another tryout, a club, studying time) to be on the team for 2 months? Is there some local district or state guidelines on the coach cutting players that was violated? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/103 "2012-05-16T17:08:47Z")
The kid learned that life ain’t fair, the greatest lesson of them all. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/104 "2012-05-16T17:20:04Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > The kid learned that life ain’t fair, the greatest lesson of them all. _Imagines Whitney Huston singing_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/105 "2012-05-16T17:27:31Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Mom is suing school district for deprivation of right to a **complete** education which (she says) includes sports participation. Naturally, the lawyers for the school district are asserting students have no right to extracurricular activities. > > My problem is that the student was already on the team and was used as a placeholder until presumably better athletes were available. It’s not as if they’re suing to get on the team in the first place. No federal case. Under Due Process and Equal Protection analysis, in order to receive protection a property interest must first _exist_. In terms of education, there is no inherent right; students have a right to education only to the extent that state law guarantees them one. Unless the state law guarantees sports participation as a component of its educational guarantee, the student has no right to it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/106 "2012-05-16T17:29:58Z")
What seems to be constantly glossed over is the fact that this isn’t just a case of some poor kid not making the final cut-_nine out of eleven players_ who had been told that the were on the team were dumped months later in favor of the kids the coach _really_ wanted. 1. Do we know if this is a common occurrence at this school? 2. Do we know if this is a common occurrence at _any_ school? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/107 "2012-05-16T17:56:46Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Leadership in an oganization, such as a large company management, is more about social skills, politics, salesmanship and such than being a smart accountant or network technician - although generally, you do need to be not a total moron… Look at an investment firm for a nice illustration of this. The brainiacs and the Rhodes Scholars are behind the scenes in the analysts room. The ex jocks and charismatic business school grads are the account managers meeting the clients. > [@](#): > > I don’t see why someone should not be in the basketball and football team (and hockey team) at the same time. Two of those sports (hockey and basketball) take place in the same season. Trying to play multiple varsity sports in the same season is going to be frowned upon if not outright restricted. It would create a multitude of scheduling conflicts between the two sports, not to mention multiplying the lost study time of the student athlete. It is a bad idea and one of the reasons that Fall sport athletes, such as football players are not allowed to practice with or otherwise participate with winter sports until their fall sport is complete. Due to the shortness of the school year there is always some overlap of fall sports, with the start of conditioning drill for the winter sports. Often these conditioning programs start weeks before the official season. They are often referred to as “captain’s practices” as coaching staff involvement outside of the official season is heavily restricted in most public school districts. Football often can run quite late with state playoffs and such. In my district the final state football game gets played a few weeks past the official start of the winter sport season. In my district hockey gets a large turnout, it is not uncommon for the first round of cuts to be made prior to fall football players joining the tryout. If you are not a fall athlete and make it to the final cut in late November you have been skating with the “team” officially and unofficially for 8 weeks or so. However no official games have been played. Perhaps a scrimmage or two with a neighboring school is all. I don’t think we are getting the full story from the articles linked. It is possible that this coach does something out of the ordinary and makes most of his cuts early, well before the football players are able to join tryouts. Odd, but not unheard of. Regardless of what the mother or son thought, clearly tryouts were not over if there was another round of cuts. Coaches have some leeway in this, but there are certainly going to be school or state regulations governing a date when the final roster has to be set. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/108 "2012-05-16T18:25:23Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Is there any chance that this case has merits on promissary estoppel in that the student sacrificed something (another tryout, a club, studying time) to be on the team for 2 months? That was my first thought on reading the OP, too. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/109 "2012-05-16T19:41:53Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > That was my first thought on reading the OP, too. In the absence of any indication that he was guaranteed to retain his spot on the team, doubtful. In any event, he has presumably not suffered financial loss as a result of losing his spot; what’s the remedy? Specific performance? Is the court supposed to determine how many games he gets to start? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/110 "2012-05-16T20:00:51Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Not if that doesn’t result in the best possible team. I mean, that might be how you would run the program, and that’s fine, but you’d be in a small minority. As already pointed out, that shouldn’t be the overarching goal. The coach is a teacher first, as he’s paid by the state. His first responsibility is to the students. Then comes the glory of winning. Doing it the other way is pure selfishness. And the argument that that’s real life is stupid. Real life is that leaving your car unlocked will result in stuff stolen. That doesn’t make it right for a teacher (or anyone else) to steal. And, anyways, most ofthese people are never going to be in the “real world” of sports. I’m reminded of something. The band director at my former high school believes this crap. He’s made the band smaller than it’s ever been, and he still has to take them to easy competitions so he can win. And the reason: no real musician wants to try out because he acts like a coach–obsessed with winning. So he gets a worse smaller band who can’t swim with the big dogs. No one got kicked out of my band and we went to competions that mattered. And won. My point? Tthis crappy tactic may not even succeed at its goal. Greed has a way of doing that. It isn’t one of the seven deadly sins for nothing. Legally: he probably doesn’t stand a chance. But, morally? He has a right to be upset, and I don’t begrudge anyone trying to get restitution. It’s the only way immoral people can learn–affecting them personally. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/111 "2012-05-16T20:38:52Z")
Yes, if athletic competition is something that is important and critical to the development of youngsters, then the _school_ team should be the one where as many people who want to participate should be able to get the long-term benefits of being taught by a coach, not just the very best athletes in the school. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/112 "2012-05-16T20:41:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The coach is a teacher first, as he’s paid by the state. His first responsibility is to the students. Generally teachers are paid by the district, and not the state. And generally a coach’s duty _as the teacher of record_ is toward his students and _as a coach_ it’s towards the team/school. Arguing that it’s “selfishness” for a coach to run a winning program is ignorant and ignores the very real benefits that a winning program has for a school district, benefits way may include cash bonuses for the campus and increased school spirit for the student body. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/113 "2012-05-16T21:45:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yes, if athletic competition is something that is important and critical to the development of youngsters, then the _school_ team should be the one where as many people who want to participate should be able to get the long-term benefits of being taught by a coach, not just the very best athletes in the school. _cough_ Gym Class _cough_ Already taken care of. In 3 years of middle school as a girl I played softball, did weight lifting, running sprints, and longer races and tried basketball - all in class. 2 years in the US in high school I did soccer both in gym class and as an after school sport. Tennis, water polo, 500 m freestyle and more softball [yuck.] I was happy to be able to do cross country skiing and avoid gym class and the indoor basketball - I didn’t have to shower and change clothes to go back to class, I could just head home right after either practice or a race. New York State you are required to do phys ed class [or after school if that is allowed in your school system] every year of school after 6th grade. If you can’t get onto an after school team, you get stuck in during the day phys ed classes. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/114 "2012-05-16T21:48:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yes, if athletic competition is something that is important and critical to the development of youngsters, then the _school_ team should be the one where as many people who want to participate should be able to get the long-term benefits of being taught by a coach, not just the very best athletes in the school. Yes, but that’s an issue for the legislature to address. You can’t expect the courts to create a framework for all students to participate in athletic competition. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/115 "2012-05-16T22:10:17Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > _cough_ Gym Class _cough_ Already taken care of. I don’t know whether there has been some kind of sea change in phys Ed classes in the 25 years since I was in school, but this comment made me laugh. Gym class is in my experience a place where youths are guided by skilled coaches in the ways of physical challenge and competition. It’s a place where a halfwit tosses a couple of balls into a crowd of kids and flirts with the hot girls while the unathletic kids are tortured and humiliated by the bullies. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/116 "2012-05-16T22:11:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes, but that’s an issue for the legislature to address. You can’t expect the courts to create a framework for all students to participate in athletic competition. I was responding to the general statements about the philosophy of athletics. Whether it is resolved in this particular legal action doesn’t interest me. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/117 "2012-05-16T22:17:08Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I don’t know whether there has been some kind of sea change in phys Ed classes in the 25 years since I was in school, but this comment made me laugh. Gym class is in my experience a place where youths are guided by skilled coaches in the ways of physical challenge and competition. It’s a place where a halfwit tosses a couple of balls into a crowd of kids and flirts with the hot girls while the unathletic kids are tortured and humiliated by the bullies. In my high school they tossed a couple of balls into the crowd and told us not to get into trouble. Some people played games while others sat in the bleachers smoking pot or just hanging out. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/118 "2012-05-17T23:38:47Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > [http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291123.htm](http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291123.htm) > > Heaven forbid you look something up for yourself. I don’t doubt how much physical therapists make. I doubt she is far more successful than everyone else she went to high school with. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528/119 "2012-05-17T23:42:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And you base this pedagogical knowledge on… help us out here… > For those whose knowledge of pedagogy doesn’t start and end at an argument on the SDMB,[research has shown that participation in sports plays a vital role in the cognitive development of children](http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/7221), and has long reaching effects. There is a reason why, for instance, the US Secret Service tends to prefer to hire football players when possible, and it’s not because they can tackle an assailant but because they’ve learned valuable teamwork skills that are necessary when a large group is working in concert. > > The idea that organized physical activity and organized mental activity are divorced is, quite simply, nonsense. I don’t remember saying that sports are useless. But you go ahead and argue against whatever statements you think I made. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-cut-from-the-team-does-mom-have-a-case/621528.md?page=5)