# Son of SDMB Musicals - Chicago **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 2, 2008, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103 "2008-10-02T00:23:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/41 "2008-10-07T16:30:07Z")
I remember a big deal when the film was being made that one of the Weinsteins wanted to get Britney Spears a part, so she could sing an original song on the end credits for a potential Oscar. The only role I could see Ms. Spears for is one of the two women that Go To Hell Kitty guns down. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/42 "2008-10-07T16:33:19Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Travolta was supposedly the first choice for Billy Flynn, but obligations and salary demands led to Gere. Ugh. Between those two, Gere was the better choice. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/43 "2008-10-07T17:12:10Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Ugh. Between those two, Gere was the better choice. For realsies. Ugh is right. I don’t know why Spacey wasn’t considered; 2003 would’ve been a good time for him to get back in the spotlight, too. Maybe he was too busy with the Old Vic. Then again, if Travolta and Gere were the top choices, they seem to have been going for hunky types. ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/44 "2008-10-07T18:43:34Z")
I own this movie and it is probably my favorite musical-made-movie. (Hence my name here…🙂 ) I already lean towards this style musical though, as I am not a fan of Webber type musicals. I will usually choose a play over a musical anyway, but there are a few I really love, like Chicago. I appreciated how carefully this musical was made into a movie, and that the theatrical touches were kept, like the staging, (and details like the scarves mentioned previously by others) I really enjoyed. I thought it was visually very well done, and costuming was great. John C Reilly - I ADORE him in this movie. Mr. Cellophane is my favorite number, his characterization is perfect. The way he shuffles and ducks his head. Hard to believe now as he is known more for his more full-on comedy in popular movies with Will Ferrell. He has much stage experience though, IIRC. and that comes through. Also, I believe Catherine Zeta-Jones has quite a bit of stage musical experience, and helped teach Renee in the ways of singing and dancing for this movie. She is obviously the stronger performer of the two, but as she is supposed to be the experienced one, it works. I liked Richard Gere but I could definitely see Spacey in this role. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/45 "2008-10-07T19:03:58Z")
So do you think the final number (Velma and Roxie at the Chicago Theater) is fantasy or real? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/46 "2008-10-07T19:06:30Z")
My daughter and I love this movie…every so often, we’ll do the opening lines to Cellblock Tango “Pop Six Squish Uh-Uh Cicero Lipshitz!” with one of us doing one of the words with the other doing the next word, alternating. I did read somewhere that Britney Spears was considered for the role that Lucy Liu played, of the pineapply heiress who shot her husband and his two lovers. I wonder how her case turned out? I thought this movie flowed very well, especially when Roxie fires Billy, then gets a wake-up call when the Hunyak hangs, and rehires him. I didn’t get right away that Roxie wasn’t pregnant, I thought she had a miscarriage. Then someone pointed out she performed a sexual favor to the doctor, who was then told by Billy to zip up his pants. :smack: **Sampiro** , I think the final number is real. The movie is about scoundrels who get away with murder, so I think it’s real. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/47 "2008-10-07T22:11:05Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > So do you think the final number (Velma and Roxie at the Chicago Theater) is fantasy or real? I think it’s a fantasy, albeit one that might come true later on. I take it as Roxie and Velma imagining what a hit their show is going to be. A big part of why I feel this way is the way that other characters (Flynn and Mama, IIRC) are shown in the audience applauding. Sure, these people might have come to the real show, but it seemed like a typical “Everyone we know will be there to see how great we are!” fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/48 "2008-10-07T22:33:08Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I’ve never seen _Chicago_ onstage, but I take it that it’s supposed to be a surprise that Mary Sunshine is played by a man? Even if a relatively unknown actor had been cast in the part, I’d think it would be a lot more difficult to find an actor who could “pass” in close-up on the big screen. If the audience is thinking “Mary Sunshine looks like a drag queen” or “Mary Sunshine sure has a mannish face” then it wouldn’t be all that surprising when she’s revealed to be a man. > > Even if it’s not supposed to be a big shock to the audience, I think that’s the sort of thing that works well onstage but is difficult to pull off in a movie. A theater-going audience is going to accept that some of the performers may not be the same age, race, or sex as their characters, but this isn’t how casting is usually handled in movies. Yes–I recall noticing that Mary Sunshine was played by D. Sabella (I recall the initial D. , and am assuming that the person who provided the name is accurate). I don’t recall why I was looking for the person who played Mary Sunshine, maybe I was just reading everything in the program during intermission. At any rate, looking at the picture or reading the bio, I suspected that D. was male–which didn’t compute because Mary Sunshine was female. Heavyset, not particularly feminine, but a woman none-the-less. And then there was the scene where Mr. Lawyer rips off the wig, and the shirt, and exposes a very male looking undershirt, and it becomes clear that Mary Sunshine was a man in disguise. Lightbulb moment about the oddities in the program, for me at any rate. I think the big thing which makes this work onstage is just the scale. Admittedly, I didn’t have a front row seat–more likely a first row of the whatchamacallit (not balcony, exactly), but the people were small and far away and lit mostly by spots. In movies, it is normal to see people in close-up, which requires a lot more subtlety than the stage does. I’m not sure that Mary Sunshine couldn’t have been a man, but it’s harder to pull off well. (note: I got interrupted before the last two-three paragraphs, I may have lost my train of thought.) ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/49 "2008-10-07T22:55:46Z")
> [@choie](#): > > IMO Kevin Spacey was born for this role. He sings beautifully, has the perfect ‘charming carny/huckster’ persona, and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen him tapdance. > [@twickster](#): > > Yeah, he’d be good – and your suggestion reminds me: Christopher Walken is actually a pretty good dancer, as we’ll see in December when we get to _Pennies from Heaven_. He’d be good too. > [@Sampiro](#): > > Travolta was supposedly the first choice for Billy Flynn, but obligations and salary demands led to Gere. Can Spacey sing? I’ve never heard him. Walken can dance well, but his singing voice leaves much to be desired. Travolta would have been interesting in the part, certainly he has the feet and voice for the role, but I’m not sure he’s the right type - like Gere, he lacks the “scruffy” quality. The only viable alternative would have been to take “unknowns” from Broadway and have them reprise their roles. eta - by the way - before hitting Hollywood in the early 70s, Gere had a lot of stage musical experience - so he was, at one point, able to dance quite well. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/50 "2008-10-07T23:18:49Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > Can Spacey sing? I’ve never heard him. Yes, and quite well, actually – he did his own singing when he played Bobby Darrin in _Beyond the Sea._ ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/51 "2008-10-07T23:31:59Z")
Wow, to be honest, **Sampiro** , I never even thought about whether that “Nowadays” finale was real – I took it as a given that Roxie and Velma were really on stage. Fits the theme for them to not just get away with murder (literally), but to become the toast of Chicago. But it’s a very interesting question, and I can now see it working either way. Still, the arc works best if it’s not a fantasy; this way, Roxie has successfully crawled her way to the top and partnered with the woman she so admired right at the beginning. > [@anyrose](#): > > Can Spacey sing? I’ve never heard him. [That’s All](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9P8pnVyIOs) (from his _Beyond the Sea_ Bobby Darrin biopic); very Billy Flynn-esque, even with the showgirls yet! [That Old Black Magic](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUHhe8D-YA8) (he undersings a bit here – his style is very casual – but he sells it at the end) ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/52 "2008-10-07T23:43:34Z")
Zellweger’s scene in that silver outfit was incredibly erotic, and quite possibly the best scene in the whole show. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/53 "2008-10-08T00:04:54Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Yes, and quite well, actually – he did his own singing when he played Bobby Darrin in _Beyond the Sea._ > [@choie](#): > > [That’s All](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9P8pnVyIOs) (from his _Beyond the Sea_ Bobby Darrin biopic); very Billy Flynn-esque, even with the showgirls yet! > > [That Old Black Magic](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUHhe8D-YA8) (he undersings a bit here – his style is very casual – but he sells it at the end) Thank you both. I’d always thought he just lip sync’ed to Darrin’s original vocals. ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/54 "2008-10-08T01:01:20Z")
I think the final Velma/Roxie song is purposefully done so as to be ambiguous, and a good case could be made either way. I like to take it as their real act, because it sums up the glorification and exploitation of crime/ruthlessness in Chicago during that time. They are celebrated because of their crimes, as they dance along the stage with prop machine guns. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/55 "2008-10-08T02:22:05Z")
> [@Eureka](#): > > I think the big thing which makes this work onstage is just the scale. Admittedly, I didn’t have a front row seat–more likely a first row of the whatchamacallit (not balcony, exactly), but the people were small and far away and lit mostly by spots. whatchamacallit=mezzanine, I remembered as soon as I walked away from my computer, but didn’t have a chance to type it until now. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/56 "2008-10-08T02:43:40Z")
**DesertRoomie** was working at the local movie house when this came out. They had a pretty generous refund policy; someone could go to the box office with no more than an “I’m not liking it” and get a pass for another movie (short of the credits rolling, of course). _Chicago_ by far had the most walkouts, generally about twenty minutes into the film. We were thinking it was Cell Block Tango that did it. Might have been Annie (“One of those Mormons, you know.”) was the final straw. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2008, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/57 "2008-10-08T13:01:40Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > So do you think the final number (Velma and Roxie at the Chicago Theater) is fantasy or real? > [@Lamia](#): > > I think it’s a fantasy, albeit one that might come true later on. I take it as Roxie and Velma imagining what a hit their show is going to be. > > A big part of why I feel this way is the way that other characters (Flynn and Mama, IIRC) are shown in the audience applauding. Sure, these people might have come to the real show, but it seemed like a typical “Everyone we know will be there to see how great we are!” fantasy. The “people in the audience” element reminded me of the end of Fosse’s _All That Jazz_ – another film that mixed fantasy and reality. I assume Marshall did that as a deliberate homage. Of course, Joe Gideon ended up flatlining at the end of that number, so I’m not sure how far the comparison works. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/58 "2008-10-11T01:33:49Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > The “people in the audience” element reminded me of the end of Fosse’s _All That Jazz_ – another film that mixed fantasy and reality. I assume Marshall did that as a deliberate homage. > > Of course, Joe Gideon ended up flatlining at the end of that number, so I’m not sure how far the comparison works. Hmmm. How about the people in the audience reflected in a distorted mirror at the very end of _Cabaret_? We may be onto something. No flatline for the MC, though. He just whisked through the curtain. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/59 "2008-10-11T13:39:27Z")
Speaking of the MC, was being the Master of Ceremonies at a posh club the piano player’s fantasy? Everything else was somebody else’s fantasy, and his real gig was in a two-bit dive. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103/60 "2008-10-11T14:21:00Z")
> [@Sigmagirl](#): > > Speaking of the MC, was being the Master of Ceremonies at a posh club the piano player’s fantasy? Everything else was somebody else’s fantasy, and his real gig was in a two-bit dive. I wondered about that, too. Maybe at the auditioning club he was moonlighting – um, daylighting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/son-of-sdmb-musicals-chicago/466103.md?page=4)